I've heard/read that Craig says Calvinism = Fatalism.

I've heard people say, he's such a great debater that nobody will face him or are capable of facing him on the issue.

I've heard a reformed Pastor, say, he disagrees with Craig on this but has not figured out a response yet.

I'm just looking for thoughts on the issue. Anybody know his argument?

Would they be willing to share it and a response?

My own response, right now, is:

Chapter 3 - WCF

Specifically this:

"7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.a

a. Mat 11:25-26; Rom 9:17-18, 21-22; 2 Tim 2:19-20; 1 Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4.

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,a that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.b So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;c and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.d"

Fatalism?
Worth the debate?

or do we rest in the "High Mystery" of it all?

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WWW.SURFWRITERS.BLOGSPOT.COM
Trevor
Christian/Husband/Father/Writer/Teacher--
--In that order.
Bethany Church, Sierra Madre, CA.
God is my King
"You've got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmitive, and don't mess with Mr. in-between." Tony Bennett.

We have heard that accusation before and we have refuted it soundly. Read the conclusion to the Canons of Dordrecht.

An excerpt:

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA
Church Blog

"there is no creature, either in heaven or on earth, who loves us more than Jesus Christ"
Belgic Confession, Article 26

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I have not read much of Dordt...thanks.

He seems to be referred to as such a Power House, in debating, same with Moreland...a shame they are not more reformed in their thinking. They just carry so much weight, in Christian circles--at least the circles that think--that I'm reading up and listening to them when I can.

I'm a student at Biola and, although I have not taken any classes from Craig, I have had to read a couple of his books. I have never seen him explicitly write Calvinism equals Fatalism, but perhaps I haven't read the right books, yet.

In one of my classes here at Biola, we used W.G.T. Shedd's Dogmatic Theology as a text. Also, it is noteworthy that the editor of Shedd's Dogmatic Theology is Dr. Alan Gomes - Chair of the Systematics Department of Talbot Seminary. All this to say, not all professors at Biola are anti-Calvinists, though the majority are not Calvinists.

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

I have Gomes edition of Shedd and appreciate it too. But, wouldn't it be fair to say that most of the apologetics top-guns at Biola are non-Calvinists or anti-Calvinists?

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Ya know, it's funny. I've taken a couple of classes in the M.A. Apologetics program (they overlap with the M.A. Science and Religion program). The professors that I have encountered in the M.A. Apologetics are Calvinists (or, at a minimum, sympathetic to Calvinism). So, I think there is a disconnect between the Apologetics program and Talbot, in general.

And to clarify: the M.A. Apologetics is not part of Talbot (which is where Craig and Moreland are). It is part of the School of Professional Studies, although there are professors who teach in both (such as Dr. Gomes).

This may be too simplistic an answer, since I haven't read Craig's actual argument, but I think one would have to redefine fatalism in order to say that it's the same as Calvinism. Fatalism sees the ordering of destiny as the product of meaningless "fate" (whatever that is). Calvinism does teach that all things are ordained by God, but God is not an impersonal force and he directs events with a defined purpose in mind.

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart

I don't see how he can avoid the same charge of fatalism unless he is an open theist, which is outside the boundary of Christianity.

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Polo
Layman, Chinese Evangelical Church/Independent
San Diego

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. (Romans 11:36)

If your theological/philosophical system involves predestinating all things prior to creation, then you are going to get the rap about fatalism. I agree with David that it only properly applies to a capricious or irrational "fate." Still, philosophers will never be willing to cede that point.

Fatalism actually presupposes libertarian free will (or something like it). Calvinism does not. So with fatalism, one is going to end up with the same fate no matter what they want or try to do. Even against their will, what will occur will inevitably occur.

So for example, one is fated to die tomorrow at 6 pm, death by an evil demon. *It may be different possible futures in which this takes place*, e.g. she could be run over by a car, stabbed in the back, death by poison, etc. The point is, that person will die tomorrow at 6 pm.

Calvinism, on the other hand, fits well with something like compatibilism. So there is only one possible future, *and there is only one possible means* of bringing that future into existence. So, Calvinism is actually more restrictive than fatalism, but it is surely distinguished from fatalism for these (and other) reasons. One other reason might be that most forms of fatalism are impersonal determinism's, whereas Calvinism is a form of personal determinism. Hope that helps.

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Caleb
Trinity Baptist Church
Spokane, WA

Good point, Caleb. One can call Calvinism/Christianity deterministic, but not fatalistic.

Yes, him and Moreland like to conflate to two views. I think it has a rhetorical effect if nothing else. "You believe in fatalism (Gasp!)"

That's funny.

You read that fast David!

Since I mentioned Shedd earlier, perhaps his distinction between fate and the Divine Decree might help clarify the difference:

(Dogmatic Theology, p. 322-323)

Such a great debater that nobody will debate him. Hmmmmm. Is that like saying: "Nobody goes to that restaurant any more. It's always too crowded"???

He's a (middle-knowledge) Molinist.

My pastor wants to debate him or Moreland - or both. They won't debate Christians, they said...

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Stephen
Reformer, SBC
Faith Defenders
Anaheim, CA
[URL="http://biblicalthought.com"]biblicalthought.com[/URL]

"Resolved, never to give over, nor in the least to slacken, my fight with my corruptions, however unsuccessful I may be." --Jonathan Edwards, The Resolutions, #56

Yup.

Interesting. I wonder why?

Because he is openly critical of their natural theology, calling it religious humanism

Fatalism says "When I shoot the arrow, it will land where it ends up"

God says "The arrow will end up EXACTLY where I determine to make it land"


Fatlism believes in god or source that has no interest in what happens. some blind force with no purpose in the end goal.

Fatalism says "what is to be, will be"

God says "WHat I purpose to be will be"

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N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI

Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

Obviously, I mean on this issue...he debates all the time. Sounds like it goes both ways, he won't debate Christians? Not his purpose I guess?

I guess I could clarify, the above, that, the impression is, from those I've talked to, nobody could stand up to him, in a debate, over Calvinism, because he is such a great debater. Of course, if he won't debate it, we'll never know....