Wesley Vs. Toplady

Blueridge Believer · #1 (**permalink**) 10-31-2007, 12:07 PM

+++ JOHN WESLEY'S SHAMEFUL PERSECUTION OF AUGUSTUS TOPLADY - ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF ARMINIAN HATRED FOR THE TRUTH AND THOSE PREACHING THE TRUTH, WHICH IS COMMONLY NICKNAMED CALVINISM
From Still Waters Revival Books:

John Wesley, the great apostle of Arminianism in the following century, manifested the same malicious spirit of persecution against Augustus Toplady, an earnest defender in his day of the doctrines of free and sovereign grace, and author of 'Rock of Ages Cleft for Me.'

When Toplady was thought to be on his death-bed, Wesley industriously circulated a report that Toplady had recanted the principles which it had been the business of his life to advocate. Wesley supposed Toplady to be too near the grave to contradict this foul calumny and write in his own defence. "But to the confusion of his enemies" to quote from Volume I of Toplady's Works "strength was given him to do both." Nor did he ever appear more triumphant than when, almost with his dying breath, he made so honourable and so successful an effort to repel the attacks of calumny and maintain the cause of truth.

On [Lord's-day], June 14th, less than two months before his death, he came from Knightsbridge, and after a sermon by his assistant, the Rev. Dr. Illingworth, he ascended the pulpit, to the utter astonishment of his people, and delivered a very short but a very effective discourse from 2 Peter 1:13,14, Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this, my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.' When speaking of the abundant peace he experienced, and the joy and consolation of the Holy Ghost, of which for months past he had been a partaker, together with the persuasion that in a few days he must resign his mortal part to corruption, as a prelude to seeing the King in His beauty, the effect produced was such as may, perhaps, be conceived, but certainly cannot at all be described. His closing address was in substance the same with the following paper which was published the week after, and entitled, 'The Rev. Mr. Toplady's Dying Avowal of His Religious Sentiments.'

Concerning Toplady's end we are told,

"All his conversations, as he approached nearer and nearer to his decease, seemed more heavenly and happy. He frequently called himself the happiest man in the world. 'O!' (says he) 'how this soul of mine longs to be gone! Like a bird imprisoned in a cage, it longs to take its flight. O that I had wings like a dove, then would I flee away to the realms of bliss and be at rest for ever!' .... Being asked by a friend if he always enjoyed such manifestations, he answered, 'I cannot say there are no intermissions; for, if there were not, my consolations would be more or greater than I could possibly bear; but when they abate they leave such an abiding sense of God's goodness and of the certainty of my being fixed upon the eternal Rock Christ Jesus, that my soul is still filled with peace and joy.'"

Within the hour of his death he called his friends and his servantS and said,

"It will not be long before God takes me; for no mortal man can live (bursting while he said it into tears of joy) after the glories which God has manifested to my soul.' Soon after this he closed his eyes and found (as Milton finely expresses it)-'A death like sleep, A gentle wafting to immortal life' on Tuesday, August the 11th, 1778, in the 38th year of his age." (pp. 119, 120).

Toplady was not long in his grave when John Wesley publicly asserted that "the account published concerning Mr. Toplady's death was a gross imposition on the public; that he had died in black despair, uttering the most horrible blasphemies, and that none of his friends were permitted to see him." Sir Richard Hill, a friend of Mr. Toplady's, and also the Rev. J. Gawkrodger publicly wrote John Wesley and accused him of vilifying the ashes and traducing the memory of the late Mr. Augustus Toplady," and affirming that "many respectable witnesses could testify that Mr. Toplady departed this life in the full triumph of faith." (Vol. I, pp. 121-128).

The report continues that a pious dissenting minister expostulated in a pamphlet with Mr. Wesley on his unjust assertions in the following words:

"Mr. Wesley and his confederates, to whom this letter is addressed, did not only persecute the late Mr. Toplady during his life, but even sprinkled his death-bed with abominable falsehood. It was given out, in most of Mr. Wesley's societies, both far and near, that the worthy man had recanted and disowned the doctrines of sovereign grace, which obliged him, though struggling with death, to appear in the pulpit emaciated as he was, and openly avow the doctrines he had preached, as the sole support of his departing spirit. Wretched must that cause be, which has need to be supported by such unmanly shifts, and seek for shelter under such disingenuous subterfuges. O! Mr. Wesley, answer for this conduct at the bar of the Supreme. Judge yourself and you shall not be judged. Dare you also to persuade your followers that Mr. Toplady actually died in despair! Fie upon sanctified slander! Fie! Fie!"

Those who have read the preceding letters (by Sir Richard Hill and Rev. J. Gawkrodger) astonished as they must have been at their contents, will yet be more astonished to hear, that to the loud repeated calls thus given to him to speak for himself, Mr. Wesley answered not a word. Nor is it too much to say, that by maintaining a pertinacious silence in such circumstances, the very vitals of his character were stabbed by himself. He thus consented to a blot remaining on his name, among the foulest that ever stained the reputation of a professed servant of Christ.

Why should Toplady who kept the faith and finished his course in this world with joy be the target of the shafts of Wesley's venom?

It is because he refuted on Scriptural grounds the Arminianism of Wesley, and fearlessly stood in defence of the eternal truths of free and sovereign grace?

"By what spirit," writes Toplady: "this gentleman and his deputies are guided in their discussion of controversial subjects, shall appear from a specimen of the horrible aspersions which, in 'The Church Vindicated from Predestination,' they venture to heap on the Almighty Himself. The recital makes one tremble; the perusal must shock every reader who is not steeled to all reverence for the Supreme Being. Wesley and Sallon are not afraid to declare that on the hypothesis of divine decrees, the justice of God is no better than the tyranny of Tiberius. That God Himself is 'little better than Moloch.' 'A cruel, unwise, unjust, arbitrary, a self-willed tyrant.' A being devoid of wisdom, justice, mercy, holiness, and truth.' 'A devil, yea, worse than the devil.' Did the exorbitancies of the ancient ranters, or the impieties of any modem blasphemers, ever come up to this? ... Observe, reader, that these also are the very men who are so abandoned to all sense of shame, as to charge me with blasphemy for asserting with Scripture, that God worketh all things according to the counsel of His own will, and that whatever God wills is right."

"S being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11).

- FROM: William MacLean, Arminianism: Another Gospel - Wesley, Moody, Billy Graham, Quotes By Calvin, Spurgeon, Edwards, Owen, Rutherford, Hodge, et al., which is at no cost at SermonAudio.com - Arminianism: Another Gospel

JM · #2 (**permalink**) 10-31-2007, 12:43 PM

Good link, thanks.

**BobVigneault** · #3 (**permalink**) 10-31-2007, 12:53 PM

I never knew that James. Thanks for posting.

Blueridge Believer · #4 (**permalink**) 10-31-2007, 01:04 PM

The more I read about Wesley the more I wonder about him. Methinks that Whitefield must have have a truckload of grace to have kept any fellowship with him.

**BobVigneault** · #5 (**permalink**) 10-31-2007, 01:10 PM

I hear you, I have always had a lot of respect for Wesley (particularly from his funeral sermon for Whitefield), now I'm realizing that more respect for Wesley is actually filtered through Whitefield. Fascinating.

JM · #6 (**permalink**) 10-31-2007, 02:15 PM

AV1611 [RSJ/Richard] posted some good stuff about this on the net last year and it changed my view of Wesley.

John Wesley - The False Apostle Of Free Will

A Display of Arminianism

A Letter To The Rev. John Wesley Relative to His Pretended Abridgment of Zanchius on Predestination

Controversy between Augustus Toplady and John Wesley

JM

Quickened · #7 (**permalink**) 11-14-2007, 10:51 AM

How do i do the "thank you" for posts!? This is a deserving one!

Blueridge Believer · #8 (**permalink**) 11-14-2007, 12:25 PM

Just hit the little thumb in the right hand loewr corner.

**KMK** · #9 (**permalink**) 11-14-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

The more I read about Wesley the more I wonder about him. Methinks that Whitefield must have have a truckload of grace to have kept any fellowship with him.

And what's up with all of the praise toward Wesley from Spurgeon? What did he see in the guy? I want to give Spurgeon the benefit of a doubt. Maybe he was aware of something about Wesley I am unaware of.

Blueridge Believer · #10 (**permalink**) 11-14-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

The more I read about Wesley the more I wonder about him. Methinks that Whitefield must have have a truckload of grace to have kept any fellowship with him.

And what's up with all of the praise toward Wesley from Spurgeon? What did he see in the guy? I want to give Spurgeon the benefit of a doubt. Maybe he was aware of something about Wesley I am unaware of.

Spurgeon always went the extra mile to hold out the palm branch to people. Thats the only reason I can think of.

Amazing Grace · #11 (**permalink**) 11-14-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

The more I read about Wesley the more I wonder about him. Methinks that Whitefield must have have a truckload of grace to have kept any fellowship with him.

And what's up with all of the praise toward Wesley from Spurgeon? What did he see in the guy? I want to give Spurgeon the benefit of a doubt. Maybe he was aware of something about Wesley I am unaware of.

If you notice, Spurgeon only "praised" Wesley's work on preaching and his efforts in evangelizing people as a whole. Always countered it with his disapproval with his doctrines.

Quickened · #12 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

Just hit the little thumb in the right hand loewr corner.

Maybe i am too new but i dont seem to have it. Maybe i should seek technical support

**KMK** · #13 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

The more I read about Wesley the more I wonder about him. Methinks that Whitefield must have have a truckload of grace to have kept any fellowship with him.

And what's up with all of the praise toward Wesley from Spurgeon? What did he see in the guy? I want to give Spurgeon the benefit of a doubt. Maybe he was aware of something about Wesley I am unaware of.

If you notice, Spurgeon only "praised" Wesley's work on preaching and his efforts in evangelizing people as a whole. Always countered it with his disapproval with his doctrines.

Can you provide some examples of these?

***Semper Fidelis*** · #14 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

The more I read about Wesley the more I wonder about him. Methinks that Whitefield must have have a truckload of grace to have kept any fellowship with him.

And what's up with all of the praise toward Wesley from Spurgeon? What did he see in the guy? I want to give Spurgeon the benefit of a doubt. Maybe he was aware of something about Wesley I am unaware of.

Spurgeon always went the extra mile to hold out the palm branch to people. Thats the only reason I can think of.

He also held out olive branches.

Daniel Ritchie · #15 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 07:20 AM

For more on what Toplady thought of Wesley see John Wesley: A Friend of Rome

**py3ak** · #16 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 09:55 AM

It's worth while to read J.C. Ryle's take on the controversy in his Christian Leaders of the Last [18th] Century

***Joshua*** · #17 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

It's worth while to read J.C. Ryle's take on the controversy in his Christian Leaders of the Last [18th] Century

A brief synopsis?

Blueridge Believer · #18 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

For more on what Toplady thought of Wesley see John Wesley: A Friend of Rome

That was a good read brother.

**py3ak** · #19 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshua

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

It's worth while to read J.C. Ryle's take on the controversy in his Christian Leaders of the Last [18th] Century

A brief synopsis?

He says something along the lines of, if we had only read Toplady's hymns we'd never believe his controversy: and if we had only read his controversy we would never believe his hymns. He cites Whitefield's godo opinion of Wesley, and is unwilling to accept Toplady's assessment. It is rather refreshing to see someone who resists the tendency identified by Orwell to determine credibility according to political commitments (or theological commitments).

Daniel Ritchie · #20 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

For more on what Toplady thought of Wesley see John Wesley: A Friend of Rome

That was a good read brother.

Glad you enjoyed it; Toplady is very funny but really hits the nail on the head.

AV1611 · #21 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

It's worth while to read J.C. Ryle's take on the controversy in his Christian Leaders of the Last [18th] Century

1. Whitefield: The Revival Library
2. Toplady: Toplady and His Ministry

Let's not forget that Ryle was not a Calvinist

**py3ak** · #22 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 03:57 PM

And yet he could agree that Toplady had unanswerably established and vindicated the Calvinistic nature of the 39 Articles.

And let us remember that Boswell thought Dr. Johnson would have approved Whitefield had he lived to see the vindication of Whitefield from the slanders against him during his life. There was a lot of slander and lot of false report during those times: and if we allow credibility to be determined by political or theological pre-commitments, we run the risk of making mistakes like Johnson's, who admired Wesley but loathed Whitefield.

et · #23 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 04:02 PM

I always find it (his doctrines) a little sad.

I say this because in some cases where I have read some Wesley simply writing about Scripture with little or no Arminian error, and some of it is very moving. Wesley could have been one of the great minds in the Church had he not so clung to his doctrine so stubbornly.

Amazing Grace · #24 (**permalink**) 11-15-2007, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

And what's up with all of the praise toward Wesley from Spurgeon? What did he see in the guy? I want to give Spurgeon the benefit of a doubt. Maybe he was aware of something about Wesley I am unaware of.

If you notice, Spurgeon only "praised" Wesley's work on preaching and his efforts in evangelizing people as a whole. Always countered it with his disapproval with his doctrines.

Can you provide some examples of these?

"Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines that he preached, yet for the man himself and his effort to saving souls I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitfield and John Wesley" (p. 176). Defense of Calvinism

There is one Kevin. Ill try to find more, but it sums it up well

AV1611 · #25 (**permalink**) 11-16-2007, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

And yet he could agree that Toplady had unanswerably established and vindicated the Calvinistic nature of the 39 Articles.

Ryle was a good man in his day in opposing the Tractarians but he had major problems not least because he agreed more with Wesley than Toplady. Furthermore, Toplady lived during the same period at Wesley whilst Ryle was separated from them by a number of years.

A good man but let us be careful not to place him on a plinth.

Church Society - Issues - History - Ryle

Daniel Ritchie · #26 (**permalink**) 11-16-2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

And yet he could agree that Toplady had unanswerably established and vindicated the Calvinistic nature of the 39 Articles.

Ryle was a good man in his day in opposing the Tractarians but he had major problems not least because he agreed more with Wesley than Toplady. Furthermore, Toplady lived during the same period at Wesley whilst Ryle was separated from them by a number of years.

A good man but let us be careful not to place him on a plinth.

Church Society - Issues - History - Ryle

Was JC Ryle not a four point Calvinist; I noticed his commentary on John was weak concerning the extent of the atonement.

**py3ak** · #27 (**permalink**) 11-16-2007, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

And yet he could agree that Toplady had unanswerably established and vindicated the Calvinistic nature of the 39 Articles.

Ryle was a good man in his day in opposing the Tractarians but he had major problems not least because he agreed more with Wesley than Toplady. Furthermore, Toplady lived during the same period at Wesley whilst Ryle was separated from them by a number of years.

A good man but let us be careful not to place him on a plinth.

Church Society - Issues - History - Ryle

I suspect that agreeing more with Wesley than with Toplady may be something of an overstatement. And I don't think Ryle need be on a plinth in order to suspect that a Wesley contemporary (disagreeing with other Wesley contemporaries) may have had more of a party spirit than later observers.

AV1611 · #28 (**permalink**) 11-16-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Was JC Ryle not a four point Calvinist; I noticed his commentary on John was weak concerning the extent of the atonement.

No such thing as a four-point Calvinist mate. Ryle was an Amyraldian and then a fairly weak one at that.

AV1611 · #29 (**permalink**) 11-16-2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

I suspect that agreeing more with Wesley than with Toplady may be something of an overstatement.

In somethings yes but Ryle held to a universal atonement and a well meant offer of the gospel which Toplady certainly did not.

There has been a lot of historical revisionism regarding Wesley.

**KMK** · #30 (**permalink**) 11-16-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

I suspect that agreeing more with Wesley than with Toplady may be something of an overstatement.

In somethings yes but Ryle held to a universal atonement and a well meant offer of the gospel which Toplady certainly did not.

There has been a lot of historical revisionism regarding Wesley.

I wonder what Wesley would think of the Methodist church today...

AV1611 · #31 (**permalink**) 11-16-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

I wonder what Wesley would think of the Methodist church today...

The High Church Roots of John Wesley's Appeal to Primitive Christianity

**py3ak** · #32 (**permalink**) 11-16-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

I suspect that agreeing more with Wesley than with Toplady may be something of an overstatement.

In somethings yes but Ryle held to a universal atonement and a well meant offer of the gospel which Toplady certainly did not.

There has been a lot of historical revisionism regarding Wesley.

Certainly; but historical revisionism is often engaged in by more than one side of a controversy.