Puritanboard Doctor
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Ruling Elder-Elect Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA
"I am as happy as perhaps creation can make me. I enjoy all the necessaries and most of the conveniences of life. I have a peaceful study as a refuge from the hurries and noise of the world around me, the venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me..." --Samuel Davies
Deo Vindice
Snow Miser
It has to because of the logical operation of disjunction.
If Christ died for all men, then either all men are then saved or Christ is a failure.
Christ is not a failure.
All men are saved.
Any Arminian I have met will refuse to listen to this logic, and will refuse to give any answer. I only assume they will answer like the above. The alternative is:
If Christ died for all men, then either all men are then saved or Christ is a failure.
All men are not saved.
Christ is a failure.
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.
Puritanboard Junior
The problem is not the logic (or lack thereof) of the Arminian. The problem is the dichotemy presented.Originally Posted by Zenas
To Arminians, the sentence "If Christ died for all men, then 1)either all men are then saved or 2)Christ is a failure" presents a false dichotomy. Most of them won't interact with you on this logic because it makes no sense to them.
More accurately, they would say, "If Christ died for all men, then all men have the capability of accepting Christ." Once again, it boils down to whether Christ died to save men or render them savable.
Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC
Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11
Jaymin Allen (07-11-2008)
Puritanboard Professor
Yes. And add that man (not God) has the moral ability to make the final decision.More accurately, they would say, "If Christ died for all men, then all men have the capability of accepting Christ." Once again, it boils down to whether Christ died to save men or render them savable.
Scott
PCA
North Carolina
"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23
Puritanboard Sophomore
Are there any people who believe that the penalty for sin is paid for twice- once when Christ died for our sins and again when some people go to hell? I was just curious because there are those who believe that Christ was actually punished for everyone's sins, but that some people will be punished for their sins in hell. The logical conclusion that is drawn from what they believe is that the punishment for sin is taken place twice.
Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA
Puritanboard Freshman
Owen in The Death of Death basically put it this way: If Christ died for the sins of all men, then necessarily he also died for their sin of unbelief. Thus, the universal salvation, as the title for this thread states.
If he did not die for the sin of unbelief, then how can you set the point for what sins he did or did not die for?
Randy Harris
Heritage PCA Church
Oklahoma City, OK
Backwoods Presbyterian (07-11-2008)
Puritanboard Junior
Yes, there are many people who believe this where I live, although they probably wouldn't put it that way. They believe that Christ paid for everyone's sins, but if you choose not to accept Christ's payment on your behalf, then you have to pay for them yourself forever in hell. So it wasn't that Christ didn't pay for them, but that you refused His payment.
Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC
Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11
Backwoods Presbyterian (07-11-2008)
Puritanboard Doctor
Thanks Kim. You summed up the arminian error quite well. Good Job!!!Yes, there are many people who believe this where I live, although they probably wouldn't put it that way. They believe that Christ paid for everyone's sins, but if you choose not to accept Christ's payment on your behalf, then you have to pay for them yourself forever in hell. So it wasn't that Christ didn't pay for them, but that you refused His payment.
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Ruling Elder-Elect Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA
"I am as happy as perhaps creation can make me. I enjoy all the necessaries and most of the conveniences of life. I have a peaceful study as a refuge from the hurries and noise of the world around me, the venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me..." --Samuel Davies
Deo Vindice
Puritanboard Senior
I think there's a bit more to add, although most Arminians aren't usually conscious of this, as it sounds much more ridiculous when it is clearly articulated.Thanks Kim. You summed up the arminian error quite well. Good Job!!!Yes, there are many people who believe this where I live, although they probably wouldn't put it that way. They believe that Christ paid for everyone's sins, but if you choose not to accept Christ's payment on your behalf, then you have to pay for them yourself forever in hell. So it wasn't that Christ didn't pay for them, but that you refused His payment.
Since Arminians believe (along with Calvinists) that men are naturally born in a state of total depravity, they posit that prevenient, or preceding, grace counteracts the effects of sin upon all men's abilities to have saving faith, and that Jesus's death was an atonement for this. Thus, Arminians believe that Jesus's death on the cross atoned for everyone's sins to the point that everyone is born in a state of neutrality (which is philosophically impossible in terms of decision-making, but I digress), where man's volition can take over to reap the rest of Christ's atonement's benefits, or reject them and go to hell.
Ben Maas. . . . .Facebook
In college, attending First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA), Ada, OH, and
Belle Center Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA), Belle Center, OH
When at home, attending Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC), Mansfield, OH
“Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life.”
-Jonathan Edwards-
Backwoods Presbyterian (07-11-2008), panta dokimazete (07-11-2008)
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