Thread: Turning to God out of a fear of His eternal wrath. Evidence of a 'faulty conversion'?

Coming from an arminian background, a number of times I have heard the following statement (or ones like it). "Those who turn to Christ out of fear of going to hell are on shaky ground." What is instead proposed is that a more 'noble' motivation for 'turning to God' 'for salvation'. is either a) love for him 2) recognition that we have insulted him 3) we want to be holy.

I have never been comfortable with these statements primarily because my own experience in salvation was a tremendous sense of God's judgement.

However it only struck me yesterday that there are some tremendous erronious assumptions in these types of statements.

1) That there are 'ignoble' and 'noble' motivations for turning to Christ.

Whereas surely the scriptures teach that ultimately we are born again because of mercy not because of our 'noble' motivations?

2) There is the assumption that salvation is something God gives us in response to our seeking.

3) This can lead to a wrong but destructive fear in a believer i.e 'did I seek the Lord out of pure motives'?

4) It can lead to self righteousness 'I did not seek God out of fear of going to hell- I sought him out of love'.

5) The last point can actually lead to a reducing of the fear of the Lord within the church. A fear of God's wrath is seen as immaturity and not something to be considered central in preaching.

What do others think?

Originally Posted by Jon 316

3) This can lead to a wrong but destructive fear in a believer i.e 'did I seek the Lord out of pure motives'?

Exactly. Our motives are never pure: but that is not the basis on which we are justified.

The Scriptures use fear of punishment to 'motivate' us. Thank you for making the above point esp: that's something I tend to struggle with.

Good question. I do think that this isn't an either/or thing, but a both/and. There is a sense in which we find ourselves as transgressors of God's holy law and therefore condemned to hell for eternity. And there is also a sense in which we see His grace and mercy in Christ for sinners like us. The statements of the Westminster Confession in Chapter 15: Repentance Unto Life are helpful.

2. By it a sinner, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God, and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for and hates his sins as to turn from them all unto God,a purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments.b

a. Psa 51:4; 119:128; Isa 30:22; Jer 31:18-19; Ezek 18:30-31; 36:31; Joel 2:12-13; Amos 5:15; 2 Cor 7:11. • b. 2 Kings 23:25; Psa 119:6, 59, 106; Luke 1:6.

Originally Posted by a mere housewife

Originally Posted by Jon 316

3) This can lead to a wrong but destructive fear in a believer i.e 'did I seek the Lord out of pure motives'?

Exactly. Our motives are never pure: but that is not the basis on which we are justified.

The Scriptures use fear of punishment to 'motivate' us. Thank you for making the above point esp: that's something I tend to struggle with.

Thanks. I understand your struggle. Which of God's children would not be troubled by such statements since their desire is to please him?

But it hit me clear as day yesterday- this is wrong because it it looks inward to self for something pure to provide grounds for assurance of salvation. Instead the scripture teaches 'I know nothing good dwells within me' (my paraphrase) and instead we are to look to Christ and his cross as the sole grounds for our salvation and assurance!

"On Christ the solid rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand!"

-----Added 4/24/2009 at 08:16:40 EST-----

Originally Posted by A.J.

Good question. I do think that this isn't an either/or thing, but a both/and. There is a sense in which we find ourselves as transgressors of God's holy law and therefore condemned to hell for eternity. And there is also a sense in which we see His grace and mercy in Christ for sinners like us. The statements of the Westminster Confession in Chapter 15: Repentance Unto Life are helpful.

2. By it a sinner, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God, and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for and hates his sins as to turn from them all unto God,a purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments.b

a. Psa 51:4; 119:128; Isa 30:22; Jer 31:18-19; Ezek 18:30-31; 36:31; Joel 2:12-13; Amos 5:15; 2 Cor 7:11. • b. 2 Kings 23:25; Psa 119:6, 59, 106; Luke 1:6.

I agree with you (and the confession) entirely however I think the statement or question- as it is made by arminians is saying a lot more than this.

Ultimately it causes the person to look for assurance of their conversion on the basis of the purity of their motives. Rather than emphasising the work of God in both 1)convicting of sin, righteousness and judgement and 2) The glorious finished and free work of Christ on the cross.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

Originally Posted by a mere housewife

Originally Posted by Jon 316

3) This can lead to a wrong but destructive fear in a believer i.e 'did I seek the Lord out of pure motives'?

Exactly. Our motives are never pure: but that is not the basis on which we are justified.

The Scriptures use fear of punishment to 'motivate' us. Thank you for making the above point esp: that's something I tend to struggle with.

Thanks. I understand your struggle. Which of God's chidren would not be troubled by such statements since their desire is to please him?

But it hit me clear as day yesterday- this is wrong because it it looks inward to self for something pure to provide grounds for assurance of salvation. Instead the scripture teaches 'I know nothing good dwells within me' (my paraphrase) and instead we are to look to Christ and his cross as the sole grounds for our salvation and assurance!

"On Christ the solid rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand!"

Wholeheartedly, yes. I sometimes wonder if all my life, where I stumble so much and grow so frustrated with the stumbling, isn't a further lesson in this basic theme: how there is nothing good in me; and I am being saved by Christ. It's good to know also that even perfect clarity about the ground of my acceptance isn't the ground of my acceptance.

MHW

It's good to know also that even perfect clarity about the ground of my acceptance isn't the ground of my acceptance.

Absolutely... I think this is why Luther said...

"The article of justification must be sounded in our ears incessantly because the frailty of our flesh will not permit us to take hold of it perfectly and to believe it with all our heart."

I agree with the general tenor of the criticisms presented, but the fact that being born again is an act of mercy does not preclude the examination of oneself to see if in fact the evidence of regeneration is manifested. Being stirred to flee from the wrath of God is not a false motive in and of itself as long as it is accompanied with hope in the mercy of God, but if one did turn to Christ out of a false motive there would be good reason to question one's faith in order to ensure that the objects and acts of justifying faith were genuine.

but if one did turn to Christ out of a false motive there would be good reason to question one's faith in order to ensure that the objects and acts of justifying faith were genuine.

Would such examination be satisfied, failing all else, by crying out to Christ in the moment (sometimes self examination seems only to lead to doubt: and sometimes it seems the only evidence of faith is simply to stop looking within and look to Christ?)

I agree with the general tenor of the criticisms presented, but the fact that being born again is an act of mercy does not preclude the examination of oneself to see if in fact the evidence of regeneration is manifested.

Should this 'examination of oneself' to identify 'evidence of regeneration' involve examining how pure or unpure we feel that our motives where in the hour of what we consider to be our conversion?

What is the evidence that we are looking for? 'Motives in turning to Christ, where a fear of God is considered negatively but love for God considered positively?

Or is the evidence not

1) Some experience of conviction of sin, judgement and rigteousness
2) Repentance from Sin and a turning towards God
3) Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
4) Receiving of the Holy Spirit evidenced through 1) Witness of the Holy Spirit of God's love and assurance 2) Fruits of the Spirit coming forth 3) Begining to desire to know the scriptures and understanding of the scriptures increasing 4) Desire and willingness to please and obey God in all things

If these are the things you speak of, surely these are a far cry from evidence based on turning to God out of love for him rather than a fear of his judgement the former being considered inadequate and the latter being considered superior?

I guess the question we are engaging with is 10 is the statement at the start of the thread an adequate means of measuring a genuine conversion and 2) What is reasonable 'evidence' to suggest that a conversion was genuine.

Originally Posted by a mere housewife

Would such examination be satisfied, failing all else, by crying out to Christ in the moment (sometimes self examination seems only to lead to doubt: and sometimes it seems the only evidence of faith is simply to stop looking within and look to Christ?)

One would still have to answer the questions, which Christ, what does one cry out to Christ for, and what does one turn to Christ from? The Scriptures teach the object and acts of justifying faith. It does not suffice to say, I believe in Christ; faith must be properly grounded and genuinely exercised.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

Should this 'examination of oneself' to identify 'evidence of regeneration' involve examining how pure or unpure we feel that our motives where in the hour of what we consider to be our conversion?

The Scriptures do not base assurance on an hour of conversion but on abiding in Christ. Yes, examination of oneself includes the motives as to why we seek Christ. John 6:26, 27, "Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Originally Posted by a mere housewife

Would such examination be satisfied, failing all else, by crying out to Christ in the moment (sometimes self examination seems only to lead to doubt: and sometimes it seems the only evidence of faith is simply to stop looking within and look to Christ?)

One would still have to answer the questions, which Christ, what does one cry out to Christ for, and what does one turn to Christ from? The Scriptures teach the object and acts of justifying faith. It does not suffice to say, I believe in Christ; faith must be properly grounded and genuinely exercised.

Thank you Rev. Winzer.

I think I do know the answers 'by heart' -- the Christ of Scripture, redemption, my own hopelessly sinful self.

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Originally Posted by Jon 316

Should this 'examination of oneself' to identify 'evidence of regeneration' involve examining how pure or unpure we feel that our motives where in the hour of what we consider to be our conversion?

The Scriptures do not base assurance on an hour of conversion but on abiding in Christ. Yes, examination of oneself includes the motives as to why we seek Christ. John 6:26, 27, "Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

True.

The prosperity gospel can cause this sort of motivation for conversions i.e come to Christ and you will be rich. Such a basis for conversion is sure to be false.

I guess the complexity arises in this: some would say that true evidence of salvation is a desire for God himself and not his blesings (like in the example you give above). It is then concluded that a person who turns to God to 1) escape hell 2) Go to 'heaven' etc is also a person who desires God's things (benefits) but perhaps not God. It is argued that the truly saved are those who turn to God for himself and himself alone. But again there are problems with this.

1) Christ uses 'benefits' to draw men to himself

i.e 'flee the wrath to come'

or

'If anyone is thirsty let him come'

or

Warnings about hell

and

Promises of the goodness of heaven.

A person does not see the attractiveness of Christ untill the Spirit of God opens his eyes.

The means to which a person is drawn seems to be 1) Conviction i.e the need to escape judgement, the need for gorgiveness, the need to be made righteous- the need to be saved-

On this basis- how can a statement- that encourages self evaluation on the motive for turning to Christ- with the accusation that to come to him with a desire to be saved is a shaky foundation- be of any help to anyone when

1) The scripture uses such means to draw men
2) We only love God and see his lovliness after regeneration (and even then it is but a dim love)
3) Love for God grows as we mature.
4) Prior to regeneration we are God haters

Do you see what I am getting at?

This didn't seem to bother Edwards:

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God

Originally Posted by armourbearer

I agree with the general tenor of the criticisms presented, but the fact that being born again is an act of mercy does not preclude the examination of oneself to see if in fact the evidence of regeneration is manifested. Being stirred to flee from the wrath of God is not a false motive in and of itself as long as it is accompanied with hope in the mercy of God, but if one did turn to Christ out of a false motive there would be good reason to question one's faith in order to ensure that the objects and acts of justifying faith were genuine.

Sorry Rev, just reread your post- I'm not actually debating with you-but my initial quote.

-----Added 4/24/2009 at 10:11:16 EST-----

Originally Posted by Jon 316

Coming from an arminian background, a number of times I have heard the following statement (or ones like it). "Those who turn to Christ out of fear of going to hell are on shaky ground." What is instead proposed is that a more 'noble' motivation for 'turning to God' 'for salvation'. is either a) love for him 2) recognition that we have insulted him 3) we want to be holy.

I have never been comfortable with these statements primarily because my own experience in salvation was a tremendous sense of God's judgement.

However it only struck me yesterday that there are some tremendous erronious assumptions in these types of statements.

1) That there are 'ignoble' and 'noble' motivations for turning to Christ.

Whereas surely the scriptures teach that ultimately we are born again because of mercy not because of our 'noble' motivations?

2) There is the assumption that salvation is something God gives us in response to our seeking.

3) This can lead to a wrong but destructive fear in a believer i.e 'did I seek the Lord out of pure motives'?

4) It can lead to self righteousness 'I did not seek God out of fear of going to hell- I sought him out of love'.

5) The last point can actually lead to a reducing of the fear of the Lord within the church. A fear of God's wrath is seen as immaturity and not something to be considered central in preaching.

What do others think?

In the light of Mathew's helpful post-, in light of the arminian statement, its not so much that

1) That there are 'ignoble' and 'noble' motivations for turning to Christ.

Whereas surely the scriptures teach that ultimately we are born again because of mercy not because of our 'noble' motivations?

Since people can have wrong motivations for turning to 'Christ'

The problem is instead

Pitting the 'fear of God and conviction of the Holy Spirit in regards to sin and judgement' over and against 'A love for Christ and what he has done' or 'sorrow at offending God' or a 'desire to be Holy.

All of these (and more) are indications of the operations of the Spirit in his convicting and regenerating work.

The arminian quote is ultimately a false dichotomy.

a mere housewife;

Would such examination be satisfied, failing all else, by crying out to Christ in the moment (sometimes self examination seems only to lead to doubt: and sometimes it seems the only evidence of faith is simply to stop looking within and look to Christ?)

Which would be correct, we look within, only to see the answer is not within ourselves, but in Christ..it is here, that we learn to look and stand firm and hold to the promises of God in His word..

Most doubts come when we try and look at our works as proof, only to find those doubts showing us, our works really are worthless..it really is Christ and Christ alone...

Originally Posted by Jon 316

Since people can have wrong motivations for turning to 'Christ'

The problem is instead

Pitting the 'fear of God and conviction of the Holy Spirit in regards to sin and judgement' over and against 'A love for Christ and what he has done' or 'sorrow at offending God' or a 'desire to be Holy.

Well stated!

As one has to deal with different cases it becomes evident that people can be deluded by all kinds of gospels which present another "Jesus" to them. You have already noted the prosperity gospel, and that would be a main problem flowing out of charismatic excesses; from liberal circles we still have the relics of the social gospel; and now from mainline "evangelical" churches we are also seeing the psychology gospel, with its "Jesus fulfils all your needs" emphasis. We are required to be on our guard because these movements use traditional Christian language but pour different meanings into that language.