Total Depravity and Salvation

Skyler · #1 (**permalink**) 09-09-2009, 08:13 AM

I have a question about the objection against Arminianism that is frequently put forth(by myself and others) based upon the verse in Romans 8 that talks about those who are not in the spirit being unable to please God. The objection runs that if they are unable to please God, they cannot exercise saving faith(which is certainly pleasing to God!)

My question then is this--what of people who apparently come to salvation but through selfish motives? Is God pleased with that in spite of their motives?

I realize that they can only come to saving faith with the help of the Holy Spirit, but can it be through selfish motives?

And if not, what of those who point to escaping hell as their motive for salvation?

jwithnell · #2 (**permalink**) 09-09-2009, 08:16 AM

I think you've found the weakness in trying to demonstrate something with a single verse. I'd keep on plowing through Romans 9, pull in the first chapter of Ephesians, the account of Jacob .... you get the picture.

A.J. · #3 (**permalink**) 09-09-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyler

I have a question about the objection against Arminianism that is frequently put forth(by myself and others) based upon the verse in Romans 8 that talks about those who are not in the spirit being unable to please God. The objection runs that if they are unable to please God, they cannot exercise saving faith(which is certainly pleasing to God!)

My question then is this--what of people who apparently come to salvation but through selfish motives? Is God pleased with that in spite of their motives?

I realize that they can only come to saving faith with the help of the Holy Spirit, but can it be through selfish motives?

And if not, what of those who point to escaping hell as their motive for salvation?

There are people who point to escaping hell as their motive for "believing" in Christ. They hate the consequences of their sins, but do not hate their sins. Are you referring to such people? God evidently does not accept that kind of "repentance."

LeeD · #4 (**permalink**) 09-09-2009, 09:27 AM

You can see a great deal about repentance in comparing Saul's repentance with David's. David was genuine praying, " Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight" and Saul's repentance was very shallow not really grasping what he had done (in sparing some of the "quality" animals from their victory which God told them to kill). Saul loses the kingdom and David is forgiven.

A.J. · #5 (**permalink**) 09-09-2009, 09:27 AM

The WCF states,

Quote:

Chapter 15. Of Repentance unto Life.

1. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace,a the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.b

a. Zec 12:10; Acts 11:18. • b. Luke 24:47; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21.

2. By it a sinner, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God, and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for and hates his sins as to turn from them all unto God,a purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments.b

a. Psa 51:4; 119:128; Isa 30:22; Jer 31:18-19; Ezek 18:30-31; 36:31; Joel 2:12-13; Amos 5:15; 2 Cor 7:11. • b. 2 Kings 23:25; Psa 119:6, 59, 106; Luke 1:6.

The "repentance" of people who hate the consequences of their sin, but do not hate their sin is spurious. Unless they truly repent, they will all perish (Luke 13:1ff.)

Does that help?

carlgobelman · #6 (**permalink**) 09-11-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyler

I have a question about the objection against Arminianism that is frequently put forth(by myself and others) based upon the verse in Romans 8 that talks about those who are not in the spirit being unable to please God. The objection runs that if they are unable to please God, they cannot exercise saving faith(which is certainly pleasing to God!)

My question then is this--what of people who apparently come to salvation but through selfish motives? Is God pleased with that in spite of their motives?

I realize that they can only come to saving faith with the help of the Holy Spirit, but can it be through selfish motives?

And if not, what of those who point to escaping hell as their motive for salvation?

Since Reformed Theology teaches that salvation is monergistic (God alone works our salvation), I find it hard to believe that God (who alone works out our salvation) would not be pleased with the motives of our salvation. Anyone coming to salvation by purely selfish motives doesn't sound to me like someone God saved.

Regarding escaping hell, I'm sure glad that I won't be spending eternity in hell, aren't you? Is that my main, or primary, motive? No. But I can think of several verses that use the avoidance of judgment as part of the gospel...

John 3:16-18

Quote:

16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Brad · #7 (**permalink**) 09-11-2009, 05:47 PM

Someone recently posted a link to a sermon by a missionary who stated that true repentance brings us to a point where we would say we will follow and serve Christ even if it meant we would end up in hell. I think that is true, and renders all ulterior motives rubbish.

We love Him because He first loved us, not because of what He might do for us. He is worthy of our love without lifting a finger on our behalf.... but Oh, how much He has done on our behalf! Not one whit of which are we worthy.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #8 (**permalink**) 09-11-2009, 05:59 PM

Faith in Christ is something produced within the believer by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is an Arminian notion that looks to the quality of the faith to determine if God is pleased with the kind of faith that the person is exercising.

To ask if the person has come to Christ for selfish motives is to really miss the point of saving faith. It's not God looks at the quality of the faith to determine whether He's going to apply the benefits of Christ's righteousness. It's the fact that something has been wrought by God such that the believer clings to Christ and His righteousness and is vitally united to Him.

I don't believe we ought to be trying to "sell" Christ as "fire insurance" but, at the same time, we need to make sure we're not erring on the side of the idea that the quality of faith is what God ultimately finds meritorious in the individual. We need to placard Christ and Him Crucified for Sin and raised for the salvation of those who believe and the Holy Spirit will sovereignly produce faith and my even convert those who initially came near for fleshly motivations.

Richard Tallach · #9 (**permalink**) 09-11-2009, 06:44 PM

I think that people do not always know their maybe mixed motives for coming to Christ, but the main question is, Now do you trust for salvation to Christ alone, and do you hate sin?

The Spirit may use conviction of sin and fear of Hell fire in providence, to start them down the road towards His work of irresistible grace, which makes us to love Christ and hate sin.

Skyler · #10 (**permalink**) 09-11-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

Someone recently posted a link to a sermon by a missionary who stated that true repentance brings us to a point where we would say we will follow and serve Christ even if it meant we would end up in hell. I think that is true, and renders all ulterior motives rubbish.

We love Him because He first loved us, not because of what He might do for us. He is worthy of our love without lifting a finger on our behalf.... but Oh, how much He has done on our behalf! Not one whit of which are we worthy.

That's actually what sent me down that rabbit trail... Paris Reidhead's "Ten Shekels and a Shirt".

I don't think my question was whether God accepts faith based upon our motives, but rather whether one can have both faith and a wrong motive. I understand that it's something that God does, but if one has a wrong motive for his belief, then is it true faith?

I realize that's not what I said, but that might be closer to what I meant. Or, it could just be that I'm too tired and not thinking clearly.

Brad · #11 (**permalink**) 09-11-2009, 10:23 PM

Our motives are always mingled with sin, so it would come as no surprise that even our motives in being drawn to faith would be so tainted. But the reality is that we are being drawn, because without the monergistic work of God in the effectual call we would ignore any motive that would suggest we go anywhere near Him.

Paul was on the way to Damascus to kill Christians when the Lord turned him into one. I know that's stretching far beyond what you're talking about, but it does point out that God will use even murderous motives on the part of men in the process of calling them out of darkness into light, so then why not merely selfish ones?

Richard Tallach · #12 (**permalink**) 09-12-2009, 08:57 AM

Ultimately the motive of a new heart - love for the true God as Saviour and Lord - is planted at the moment of regeneration.

Some people who are genuinely regenerated may not have analysed their motives in the light of God's Word, to see how they were ultimately changed or even what their motives are now.

Our motives remain impure and imperfect before and after regenneration, but the motive of love for the true God as Saviour and Lord, is implanted among them and is not natural.