I'm still working through my definition of the intent/extent of Christ's atonement. Someone said the above quote to me recently. What say ye?

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Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC

Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11

The simplest explanation (not the fulness of what I would argue on this, but I have limited time today) is that it is clear that since a) only those who believe are saved and b) not all believe, then clearly Christ cannot be said to be "Savior" to those who will not believe in the same sense as (perhaps, and this is a secondary sticking point) he is to the elect.

This does NOT argue at all for an atoning work on Christ's behalf for all people indiscriminantly (which is often how I've heard it used, though for the life of me I can't understand how anyone actually thinks it DOES speak for universal atonement).

More later, perhaps - but wanted to make this point at least.

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



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Basically, this simply denoting that God is the only One Who can be classified as Savior; thus, He is Savior of all men; but He is particularly the Savior of His elect.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Kim, I see you are at it with the guys on the fundie site again, LOL, watch out they will drive you crazy.

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Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

Jesus is the Savior of all men insofar as he is the only Savior through whom men might be saved.

I don't see that this text is speaking of the extent of the atonement as much as it is speaking of the necessity of the atonement for those who will be saved (i.e. believe) cf. John 3:16 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

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Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA

"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)

Kim I wonder if some of this isn't also an emphasis in the New Testament on the extent of the New Covenant as opposed to the old -- ? I am not sure how to put this and so am very hesitant to say more, lest I put it wrong. But the old covenant was much narrower in its compass than the New: Christ is the saviour of the nations: the gospel is to be preached to everyone. There is a 'brave new world' because of His baptism of death, burial, and resurrection; and it has 'such people in it' -- the human race, like the rest of creation, is being restored and saved as elect individuals are baptised into Him. I don't think that is going too far--I'm sure if it is, someone will correct me :-).

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

Patience must dwell with Love, for Love and Sorrow
Have pitched their tent together here:
Love all alone will build a house tomorrow,
And sorrow not be near. -Christina Rossetti

Actually, being that I grew up a fundie and my husband goes to a fundie school and I attend a fundie church, I don't consider myself "at it" with them. In fact, I am much more comfortable in that arena.

Since I never thought through my doctrine before now, I feel it would be wrong to jump into learning every aspect of Reformed theology while failing to learn the fundie theology of those around me. I grant the same respect to both groups of believers and know that God's Spirit will guide me into truth.

It would be reasonable to gloss the term "specially" as "particularly" or even "uniquely".

In other words, it is one thing to think of Christ as THE Savior of the world, after all there is no other comparable. But of WHOM is he the Savior? Does he save those who hate him to the last? Who reject him? Or who are not allowed even to hear about him, that they might believe?

No, he is the Savior of BELIEVERS, a class within the universe of discourse, the world.

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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I would tie this passage in with ones like 2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. 2 Pe 2:1

There is a sense in which the Bible speaks of the temporal salvation of the visible church or perhaps the whole world that is seperate from decretal salvation of the elect. If you confuse the two concepts you end up on the FV road.

On first sight (and I will be thinking about this) this passage appears to be relating to some aspect of what is often called "common grace". This worries me as I had just decided that I did not agree with the concept of "common grace", so back to the drawing board for me.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

In my opinion, it is best to leave the term "salvation" of the decretally elect.
This is always the safest way to go. The question really is this: what kind of benefits, if any, do the non-elect receive from Christ's atonement? The answer must be that if there are any benefits, none of them are saving in any sense whatever.

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Rev. Lane Keister
Teaching Elder, PCA, North Dakota (working out of bounds in a CRC and an RCA church)
http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com
http://brahmsgreenglove.blogspot.com
http://accenttranslation.blogspot.com
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I could not agree more.

The Bible does however on occasion speak of salvation in a somewhat wider sense and this must be addressed so as not to cause confusion or conflation where such conflation is not proper.

Doesn't this have to do with God's common grace to all, and His special grace to the elect?

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Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

Some would say so.

The best way to learn about the atonement is to seek to understand the many texts of Scripture which speak directly to the subject. 1 Tim. 4:10 says nothing about Christ's atonement, and therefore has no bearing on the intent or extent of it.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

George Smeaton's two vol. set entitled "Christ's Doctrine of Atonement" and "Apostles' Doctrine of Atonement" surveying whole NT texts are invaluable for this purpose.

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Carlos Eduardo de Oliveira
Member
Presbyterian Church in Aluminio
Mairinque, São Paulo, Brazil

Kim,

This is a constant theme in Paul's discourses in Acts, and in his Epistles: God is the Savior of all men.

What's critical to note is that the term "savior" in the Greek denotes one who preserves, keep, protects, etc. In this sense, the Romans referred to their civil rulers as their "saviors". It is in this sense that Johnny Rotten said "God save the Queen". This means, God keep and preserve her.

The meaning would then be that God is the preserver and keeper of all men, with special attention being paid to the elect.

God the savior of all men can be seen here, as an instance in Paul's preaching:

Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: 16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

See also Acts 17:22ff.

Ephesians 1, says much the same: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church.

Christ's universal government is with special reference to "them that believe", viz, the church.

The Scriptures recognize God as the preserver and keeper of all men. This is the doctrine of divine providence, in my opinion, rather than the doctrine of the atonement which Paul speaks of here.


Godspeed,

Adam

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Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

I cracked open a few commentaries and other works dealing this verse:

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chap. 5.7:

Westminster Larger Catechism:

John Collinges in Matthew Poole's Annotations:

Benjamin Andrews Atkinson in Matthew Henry's Commentary:

English Annotations:

Dutch Annotations:

1560 Geneva Bible:

David Dickson:

John Trapp:

John Diodati:

Patrick Fairbairn:

George Swinnock, The Pastor's Farewell in Works, Vol. 4, p. 83:

Thomas Manton, Sermon on Eph. 2.10 in Works, Vol. 2, p. 387:

Thomas Manton, Exposition on Isaiah 53 in Works, Vol. 3, p. 328:

John Gill, The Cause of God and Truth, Vol. 1, pp. 160-161:

Thomas Boston, Christ the Saviour of the World in Works, Vol. 6, pp. 297-299:

Thomas Boston, Christ's Name Wonderful in Works, Vol. 10, p. 228:

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Andrew

Our God shows kindness to all men, especially those that believe. He is the Do-gooder of all, especially His Elect.

He loves all men with some love, but he loves some men with all love....

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Also, he is the savior of all men, in that he saves Jews, Samaritans, Greeks, Romans, barbarians, and so on. He came for all sorts, and he is the only savior available for them all. But, to be more specific, he is the savior only of those who believe.

Blessings!

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Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

The problem with this explanation is that (1) Paul never uses soter in this sense. Moreover, (2) when "saviour" was used of the Emperors it meant more than simply preservation of his poeple, but included defeat and protection of enemies etc.

"Especially" (malista) can sometimes (less often than not) mean "namely". Hence, "the saviour of all people, namely the elect". This would solve all sorts of theological problems.

However, linguistically it's problematic; it doesn't fit well with the overall context of 1 Timothy as a unit of discourse, most notably 1 Tim 2, which uses "all" in a something of a universal manner many times.

We must disentangle the theological from the exegetical issues. Exegetically it may say Christ is the saviour of all people. But we know, from elsewhere, that not all people will be finally saved. Hence, what can be referred to in this verse?

I take it to mean that the gospel (Christ as saviour) can be offered to all people, with an appeal that if they repent and believe they will indeed be saved. And that, a la Dort, the person's rejection of this message is not due to anything in the atonement itself.

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Marty
Ordained Presbyter; Currently Lecturer in Theology
Anglican Church of Australia
(Now finally back! in) Perth, Australia.
"There is nothing so necessary to draw us to repentance as good thoughts of God." (Thomas Manton)

JohnOwen007 (is that the Puritan James Bond? )

This is an interesting assertion: that Paul "never uses soter in this sense." Aren't you begging the question here?

What if he's using it that way here? Are we to forbid him to do so? Also, please comment on the other passages I brought forward from Acts and Ephesians, in which it is clear that part of Paul's gospel methodology was to explain that God was the savior of all men. Also, see the quotations offered by Virginia Huguenot for more detail; the Westminster Assembly seemed to think my exegesis correct (actually, it's vice versa: I think their exegesis was correct, since they came first ).

Good point that soter involves the idea of protection as well as preservation, not merely preservation. Enemies are, as a matter of course, something from which protection is needed.

Cheers,

Adam

Kim, I did a blog post on this a few months back that may help you: Savior of All in 1 Timothy 4:10. Hopefully it will help - it's mostly a revamping of what John Owen says on the verse.

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Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
WTS M.A.R. in Theology student
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
"Grace tried is better than grace, and more than grace. It is glory in its infancy." ~ John Flavel
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

If the living God was not the savior of all men, then there could be another savior. In other words, he is the only savior, the only living God, with the power to save.

And he is especially the savior of those who believe, in that, his saving power and grace is extended (blood applied) to all who believe, but not all men.

The same logic can be used for 1 john 2:2 - Jesus Christ the righteous is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world - if he was not, then there could be another propitiation. Of course, Christ is the only lamb without blemish who takes away the sins of the world.

But the unbeliever, in no uncertain terms, has no power to be a partaker of Christ's afflictions and propitiating work, unless he believes (imputed righteousness by grace through faith on the basis of the atonement). Psalm 130:3

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Matthew Philip Miller | Reformed Baptist, SBC
Student of Theology at Trinity College of Florida

Iniquities prevail against me; As for our transgressions, You will provide atonement for them. Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
Psalms 65:3-4 (NKJV)

This formulation is very well put. It does justice to the Biblical texts, and does not require any kind of wordplay and gerrymandering wherein we affirm that Christ is the "saviour of each and every human being somehow, but doesn't grant any salvific benefits to each and every human being". There are exactly NO salvific benefits that non-elect receive from Christ - and since the word "savior" affirms salvific benefits, he cannot in any sense be said to be the Savior of each and every human being. These seemingly "all men" verses can only be understood properly, doing justice to the whole of God's Word, as Matthew has outlined above. They are "Christ is unique", "Salvation is exclusively through the atoning work of Christ" passages.

Jacob,

[from your blog]
Ha, ha, I've never thought about it that way before! You're right--it doesn't quite fit in with the context of the passage.





p.s. yeah, helped me out a LOT when I was working through the L of TULIP.

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Amber
South Woods Baptist Church http://southwoodsbc.org/
wife of Tyler; mother of Ashley, Nathaniel, Isaac, Jeremiah
O send out Your light and Your truth, let them lead me; let them bring me to Your holy hill and to Your dwelling places. Then I will go to the altar of God, to God my exceeding joy; and upon the lyre I shall praise You, O God, my God. Psalm 43:3

But it's sooooo fun!! Even if they do try to get you fired!!

Off to go look there too. . . .

C

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Camille
Member, Mitchell Road Presbyterian, PCA
Taylors, SC