"Savior . . . especially of those who believe"

Kim G · #1 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 12:44 PM

Quote:

1 Tim 4:10--"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

There is a sense in which God, through Jesus Christ's death, is the Savior of all people, and there is a sense in which He is the Savior especially of those who believe. Both are true, and neither should be minimized.

I'm still working through my definition of the intent/extent of Christ's atonement. Someone said the above quote to me recently. What say ye?

toddpedlar · #2 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim G

Quote:

1 Tim 4:10--"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

There is a sense in which God, through Jesus Christ's death, is the Savior of all people, and there is a sense in which He is the Savior especially of those who believe. Both are true, and neither should be minimized.

I'm still working through my definition of the intent/extent of Christ's atonement. Someone said the above quote to me recently. What say ye?

The simplest explanation (not the fulness of what I would argue on this, but I have limited time today) is that it is clear that since a) only those who believe are saved and b) not all believe, then clearly Christ cannot be said to be "Savior" to those who will not believe in the same sense as (perhaps, and this is a secondary sticking point) he is to the elect.

This does NOT argue at all for an atoning work on Christ's behalf for all people indiscriminantly (which is often how I've heard it used, though for the life of me I can't understand how anyone actually thinks it DOES speak for universal atonement).

More later, perhaps - but wanted to make this point at least.

Joshua · #3 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim G

Quote:

1 Tim 4:10--"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

There is a sense in which God, through Jesus Christ's death, is the Savior of all people, and there is a sense in which He is the Savior especially of those who believe. Both are true, and neither should be minimized.

I'm still working through my definition of the intent/extent of Christ's atonement. Someone said the above quote to me recently. What say ye?

Basically, this simply denoting that God is the only One Who can be classified as Savior; thus, He is Savior of all men; but He is particularly the Savior of His elect.

A5pointer · #4 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 12:52 PM

Kim, I see you are at it with the guys on the fundie site again, LOL, watch out they will drive you crazy.

Poimen · #5 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 12:54 PM

Jesus is the Savior of all men insofar as he is the only Savior through whom men might be saved.

I don't see that this text is speaking of the extent of the atonement as much as it is speaking of the necessity of the atonement for those who will be saved (i.e. believe) cf. John 3:16 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

a mere housewife · #6 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 12:56 PM

Kim I wonder if some of this isn't also an emphasis in the New Testament on the extent of the New Covenant as opposed to the old -- ? I am not sure how to put this and so am very hesitant to say more, lest I put it wrong. But the old covenant was much narrower in its compass than the New: Christ is the saviour of the nations: the gospel is to be preached to everyone. There is a 'brave new world' because of His baptism of death, burial, and resurrection; and it has 'such people in it' -- the human race, like the rest of creation, is being restored and saved as elect individuals are baptised into Him. I don't think that is going too far--I'm sure if it is, someone will correct me :-).

Kim G · #7 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A5pointer

Kim, I see you are at it with the guys on the fundie site again, LOL, watch out they will drive you crazy.

Actually, being that I grew up a fundie and my husband goes to a fundie school and I attend a fundie church, I don't consider myself "at it" with them. In fact, I am much more comfortable in that arena.

Since I never thought through my doctrine before now, I feel it would be wrong to jump into learning every aspect of Reformed theology while failing to learn the fundie theology of those around me. I grant the same respect to both groups of believers and know that God's Spirit will guide me into truth.

Contra_Mundum · #8 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 01:11 PM

It would be reasonable to gloss the term "specially" as "particularly" or even "uniquely".

In other words, it is one thing to think of Christ as THE Savior of the world, after all there is no other comparable. But of WHOM is he the Savior? Does he save those who hate him to the last? Who reject him? Or who are not allowed even to hear about him, that they might believe?

No, he is the Savior of BELIEVERS, a class within the universe of discourse, the world.

Hippo · #9 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 02:32 PM

I would tie this passage in with ones like 2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. 2 Pe 2:1

There is a sense in which the Bible speaks of the temporal salvation of the visible church or perhaps the whole world that is seperate from decretal salvation of the elect. If you confuse the two concepts you end up on the FV road.

On first sight (and I will be thinking about this) this passage appears to be relating to some aspect of what is often called "common grace". This worries me as I had just decided that I did not agree with the concept of "common grace", so back to the drawing board for me.

greenbaggins · #10 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 02:53 PM

In my opinion, it is best to leave the term "salvation" of the decretally elect.
This is always the safest way to go. The question really is this: what kind of benefits, if any, do the non-elect receive from Christ's atonement? The answer must be that if there are any benefits, none of them are saving in any sense whatever.

Hippo · #11 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbaggins

In my opinion, it is best to leave the term "salvation" of the decretally elect.
This is always the safest way to go. The question really is this: what kind of benefits, if any, do the non-elect receive from Christ's atonement? The answer must be that if there are any benefits, none of them are saving in any sense whatever.

I could not agree more.

The Bible does however on occasion speak of salvation in a somewhat wider sense and this must be addressed so as not to cause confusion or conflation where such conflation is not proper.

larryjf · #12 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 06:35 PM

Doesn't this have to do with God's common grace to all, and His special grace to the elect?

toddpedlar · #13 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 06:56 PM

Some would say so.

armourbearer · #14 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 07:25 PM

The best way to learn about the atonement is to seek to understand the many texts of Scripture which speak directly to the subject. 1 Tim. 4:10 says nothing about Christ's atonement, and therefore has no bearing on the intent or extent of it.

CarlosOliveira · #15 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

The best way to learn about the atonement is to seek to understand the many texts of Scripture which speak directly to the subject.

George Smeaton's two vol. set entitled "Christ's Doctrine of Atonement" and "Apostles' Doctrine of Atonement" surveying whole NT texts are invaluable for this purpose.

armourbearer · #16 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlosOliveira

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

The best way to learn about the atonement is to seek to understand the many texts of Scripture which speak directly to the subject.

George Smeaton's two vol. set entitled "Christ's Doctrine of Atonement" and "Apostles' Doctrine of Atonement" surveying whole NT texts are invaluable for this purpose.

Christusregnat · #17 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 08:21 PM

Kim,

This is a constant theme in Paul's discourses in Acts, and in his Epistles: God is the Savior of all men.

What's critical to note is that the term "savior" in the Greek denotes one who preserves, keep, protects, etc. In this sense, the Romans referred to their civil rulers as their "saviors". It is in this sense that Johnny Rotten said "God save the Queen". This means, God keep and preserve her.

The meaning would then be that God is the preserver and keeper of all men, with special attention being paid to the elect.

God the savior of all men can be seen here, as an instance in Paul's preaching:

Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: 16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

See also Acts 17:22ff.

Ephesians 1, says much the same: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church.

Christ's universal government is with special reference to "them that believe", viz, the church.

The Scriptures recognize God as the preserver and keeper of all men. This is the doctrine of divine providence, in my opinion, rather than the doctrine of the atonement which Paul speaks of here.

Godspeed,

Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim G

Quote:

1 Tim 4:10--"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

There is a sense in which God, through Jesus Christ's death, is the Savior of all people, and there is a sense in which He is the Savior especially of those who believe. Both are true, and neither should be minimized.

I'm still working through my definition of the intent/extent of Christ's atonement. Someone said the above quote to me recently. What say ye?

VirginiaHuguenot · #18 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 10:00 PM

I cracked open a few commentaries and other works dealing this verse:

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chap. 5.7:

Quote:

Section 5.7.—As the providence of God doth, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it taketh care of his church, and disposeth all things to the good thereof. [1 Tim 4:10; Amos 9:8-9; Rom 8:28; Isa 43:3-5,14]

Westminster Larger Catechism:

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Question 63. What are the special privileges of the visible church?

Answer. The visible church hath the privilege of being under God's special care and government; [Isa 4:5-6; 1 Tim 4:10] of being protected and preserved in all ages, notwithstanding the opposition of all enemies; [Ps 115:1-2,9; Isa 31:4-5; Zech 12:2-4,8-9] and of enjoying the communion of saints, the ordinary means of salvation, [Acts 2:39; Acts 2:42] and offers of grace by Christ to all the members of it in the ministry of the gospel, testifying, that whosoever believes in him shall be saved, [Ps 147:19-20; Rom 9:4; Eph 4:11-12; Mark 16:15-16] and excluding none that will come unto him. [John 6:37]

John Collinges in Matthew Poole's Annotations:

Quote:

for God, who is the Saviour, that is, the Preserver, of all men, the Preserver of man and beast, as the psalmist speaketh, is in a more especial manner the Saviour of those that believe, Ps 33:18-19. This seemeth rather to be the sense of the text, than to understand it of eternal salvation, for so God is not the actual Saviour of all; besides that the text seemeth to speak of a work proper to the Father, rather than to the Son.

Benjamin Andrews Atkinson in Matthew Henry's Commentary:

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he is the Saviour of all men. (1.) By his providences he protects the persons, and prolongs the lives, of the children of men. (2.) He has a general good-will to the eternal salvation of all men thus far that he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He desires not the death of sinners; he is thus far the Saviour of all men that none are left in the same desperate condition that fallen angels are in. Now, if he be thus the Saviour of all men, we may hence infer that much more he will be the rewarder of those who seek and serve him; if he has such a good-will for all his creatures, much more will he provide well for those who are new creatures, who are born again. He is the Saviour of all men, but especially of those that believe; and the salvation he has in store for those that believe is sufficient to recompense them for all their services and sufferings.

English Annotations:

Quote:

V. 10. Saviour of all men] God in generall not only faveth all men, but beafts alfo. Pfa. 36.6. Saviour is here taken for protecteur or preferver, becaufe he conferveth all men in their naturall and temporall being in generall: but he is faid the Saviour efpecially of thofe that beleeve, becaufe hee is the conferver of them in their eternall and fpirituall being: hee conferveth all creatures in their eftate, men in their wayes and callings, but the faithfull in the ftate of grace: he preferveth all creatures from diforder and utter confufion, all men from manifold calamities and miferies, but the faithfull from the power of sin and death.

Dutch Annotations:

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10. in the living God, who is a preferver of all men, [Gr. foter, which word fome here tranflate Saviour. But feeing God is the Saviour of none but believers, Joh. 3.36. and elfewhere, therefore it cannot be here taken in that fense, but onely for a protector and preferver, as the Greek word fozen is oftentimes taken in generall for all kind of preferving and keeing, yea Pfal. 36.6, 7. to praife the goodnefs of God towards his, it is faid alfo, that he faveth beafts and men] [but] efpecially believers.

1560 Geneva Bible:

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The goodnes of God declareth it felf towarde all men, but chiefly towarde the faithful by preferuing them: and here he meaneth not of life everlafting.

David Dickson:

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Secondly, God is the Saviour of all men, as it is faid, Pfal. 36. Thou preferveft man and beaft, by his general goodnefs nourifhing and fupporting all men, making his Sun to rife upon the juft and unjuft: But chiefly and upon a more fpecial ground, the Saviour of beleevers, who relying upon his promifes concerning the happinefs of the life to come, renounce and reject humane inventions and opinions even in the dangers of perfecution, and follow after the exercifes of godlinefs.

John Trapp:

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Who is the Saviour of all men] Not of eternal prefervation, but of temporal refervation. For every man fhould die the fame day he is born, the wages of death fhould be paid him prefently: but Chrift begs wicked men lives for a fesion, faith one. Sin hath hurled confufion over the world, brought a vanity on the creature. And had not Chrift undertaken the fhattered condition of the world, to uphold it, it had fallen about Adams ears, faith another Divine.

Specially of thofe that believe] Who therefore are in a fpecial manner bound to obferve and obey him. Among the Romans there that were faved were wont to crown him that faved them, and to honour him as a father all their daies. We muft alfo fet the crown upon Chrifts head, Cant. 3.11. and obey this everlafting father, Ifa. 9.6.

John Diodati:

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The Saviour] or, the preferver of mens naturall and temporall beeing in generall, and efpecially of the everlafting and fpirituall beeing of his children.

Patrick Fairbairn:

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In this direction also points the further description given of God: who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe<