Piper, Grudem, Washer, Mahaney - Reformed?


What are your thoughts on these men? Do you consider them Reformed?

What is your view on their view of the Holy Spirit and Gifts.

I have heard many reformed people condemn them as being doctrinally incorrect.

Coming from the Arminian Side and now reading Reformed Theology I am still trying to get my bearings. I honestly do not want to be Reformed or Arminian but want to be Biblically Sound. I hate labels and do not want to pledge my allegiance to a Theological Position but to Christ. I understand the Great Importance of Sound Doctrine but I see that even within the Reformed Camp there is so much confusion and disagreement.

I am coming to my own conclusions based on what I see and am feeling that I might identify myself as Reformed in my Theology but not to the point that I deny the fact that I can experience God on a daily basis.

I see the superficial and emotionally unbiblical side of Armenian Theology but then again I see the pendulum swing to the other side of Reformed Theology where it seems that Christianity is more a mental Religion then a Spiritual one. It seems many Reformed people deny any form of expression that would display emotions yet the bible is full of men who "jumped, leaped and praised God". "Men who cried out and displayed emotion".

I am still seeking for a verse that say the gifts of the spirit are no longer for today but I cannot find one. But I do believe that the majority of what is called speaking in tongues and prophesy is bogus and fleshly.


I guess I am trying to come to terms with what does Real Christianity look like. Some say Reformed, some say Arminian, some say neither (middle ground).

I do believe in Doctrines of Grace but not sure I can agree that the Spirit of God has ceased to move in God's People and that God still speaks to his Children. (No not audibly, though he could if he wanted since He is sovereign) but through the Scriptures and through other believers.

I know that I probably will get kicked off this forum for saying some of these things but that is where I am at this present moment.

I hope that those who respond will do so with the view as to enlighten me on this subject and not to force me to believe your views. I want to be Biblical not Religious and I want Jesus in my life. I want to experience Him, talk with Him, love Him, know Him, commune with Him for after all it is all about Him.

I recently read the verse

John 5:39-40
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

I do not want to be one that searches the scriptures and has a bunch of head knowledge yet does not know Christ. From what I see there is that you can be doctrinally correct yet spiritually depleted.

I am not accusing anyone here of that, again, I am just trying to find my bearings and do not want to jump on anyone's band wagon but the Lord's only.

Steve

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Steve
Sonship Ministries (Reformed)
Brooklyn, NY

Take a breath...it will be okay.

Within Calvinist camps the gifts of the Spirit are still debated. I was at the Miami Pastor's Conference last year and some folks from Sovereign Grace ministries (CJ Mahaney's people) were there and gifts were discussed...more like hotly debated and these guys were more than a little put off by the idea that the gifts have ceased. The biggest argument is how much they have seen the gifts in their own lives. How they've had prophesy fulfilled or had tongues interpreted or something else which they held onto dearly. In the end since there is no verse which plainly says that the gifts have ceased they are unmoved from their position on the Holy Spirit. Now the same can be said about infant vs believer baptism and whether it's one or the other or both.

What I see is that when God opens our eyes, ears, heart, and mind to the doctrines of grace it then progresses into "What else have I got wrong?" My best advice to you is to just take it one day at a time. We are a legalist people, humanity, and we want a list of rules to make sure we are getting IT right. We want to make sure we have everything right and on point. We do the best with how much has been revealed to us.

At this point I would recommend that you learn the doctrines of grace well. Read as much as you can about it. I would say to keep it simple and focus on books which deal with the T.U.L.I.P. acronym. Read 10 or so books on each of the petals and then see where you're at. You do not have to have everything figured out today nor will you have it all figured out tomorrow.

What I will say for myself is that the personal revelation of God, as it understood by the mainstream, is a huge problem. I see that God saves us individually and then speaks to us collectively. He brings each of us into his body and then once there the message for each of us is the same. Which is in contradistinction to mainstream Christianity which believes that God saves collectively and then speaks to each person individually.

So there you have it, yet one more view which might help or might infuriate. In the end you have the scales removed from your life to understand the doctrines of grace. Praise God for that!! Learn them well because they are Biblical. From there don't get caught up in empty quarrels.

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Frank
Under Care
P.C.A.
Maryland

Check out this website: charismaticreformed.org

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Rev. Andy Eppard
Associate Minister
First Cumberland Presbyterian Church
Springfield, MO

Frank,

Thank you for your encouraging response. I am going to study the DOG and know them well. I appreciate your insight and it is very helpful. At times it can be overwhelming but God is Faithful and I knwo that he will guide me into all truth. I do not want to get caught up with debates or doctrines for the purpose of proving my point but just want to learn Christ and His Word. So I take what you said and run with it.

God bless!!!!

Steve

Hi Steve,

I am surely not the best person to answer your question, but I do have some thoughts:

1. There is not always "a verse" that convincingly teaches a doctrine, so I'm not sure that I would use that as the argument for the charismatic gifts continuing today. Since you are in the beginning stages of studying theology (as am I) that may seem a little weird. But take a fundamental doctrine like the trinity. It is clearly Biblical, but there is not "a verse" that will describe it succinctly and simply. Doctrine is often developed from Scripture by looking at the big picture, not just a verse. You will probably want to read an actual argument against the charismatic view if you want to hear the other side. This thread may be helpful.

2. No reformed person (that I know) would ever deny that the Spirit is still working among the people of God today. The debate is over HOW the Spirit is working today. Does he still give special revelation directly to believers? Also, All reformed believers would agree that God still speaks through the Bible (that is one of its primary purposes!) to his people as well as fellow believers through counsel and advice. But most would probably disagree that he speaks through "impressions" and "signposts".

Hope this helps.

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Joshua F
Layman
Mountain View Community Church (Missionary Church Denomination)
Johnstown, CO

If you want to be Biblical, you will also be Religious.

As for "experiencing God on a daily basis," what gave you the idea that Reformed Christians don't? You will no greater bastion of experiential spirituality than from the writings of the Puritans, my Friend.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

You will find this can turn into quite a heated discussion. "Reformed," as a rule, is defined by the historic confessions (Westminster, Second Helvetic, Belgic, etc). There is more to being Reformed than simply "reformed doctrine," much less the so-called 5 Points; there is also a Reformed piety and practice, which is just as important.

For Grudem, at least, it certainly is not the position of Reformed orthodoxy. I would also argue it is not Biblical.

Don't worry too much about this one. We don't believe things because they are "the Reformed belief," either, but because we believe they are entirely Biblical. Labels are not good for labels' sake; but they are necessary and convenient in a world where there are different beliefs. We all say "We believe the Bible."


I'm not sure there is as much confusion and disagreement as you might think, so long as you stay within the boundaries of confessional churches.


Nor should you! Any theology that denies an "experience" of God is certainly not Reformed! There is no such thing as a "dead orthodoxy," as R. Scott Clark has said -- by nature, Reformed theology and practice is vivifying. This must be remembered, however -- what a true "experiencing" of God looks like may not be (read: isn't) what typical evangelicalism teaches it should look like. The fact that our experience is mediated, rather than immediate, does not make it any less real or powerful.

This is one you'll continue to understand more as you learn more about our Reformed theology and practice; Reformed theology is eminently Spiritual. In fact, John Calvin has frequently been called "The Theologian of the Holy Spirit;" and the Puritans were the masters of experiential theology. Again, it may not appear as "exciting" as mainstream evangelical spirituality, but I would argue it is much deeper and truer.

As one has already noted, you will not find a verse that says this; it is a systematic conclusion. It has been discussed frequently on the board, and if you use the search feature you will find many threads.


Honest inquiry is most welcome. Just do not advocate or teach non-confessional things.

It would certainly be a tall order to address adequately all of your concerns in this thread; but if you would like to discuss or learn how we address specific or particular issues which you have raised, then by all means start a thread on that topic, and many will be more than happy to work through it with you.

__________________
Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade. --John Calvin

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good job on expressing what I think many (including myself) have experienced in regards to growing in the faith.

We live in a world, where we can get any religious teaching at a click of the mouse, we're bombarded by different teachings from radio shows and tv, every which way we turn, there is a different doctrine being espoused...is it a wonder the average Christian in America is confused.

The first thing I was blown away by, when researching (and I still am growing, challenging, etc) the reformed faith, was the clear teaching of scripture, summarized in the Three Forms of Unity. What a starting point, one that very few in American Church's have been exposed to.
http://www.prca.org/literature.html
Enjoy the ride, don't stress out too much, God's Grace abounds and is sufficient as we work out our theology.

Good post!

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WWW.SURFWRITERS.BLOGSPOT.COM
Trevor
Christian/Husband/Father/Writer/Teacher--
--In that order.
Bethany Church
CALIFORNIA
God is my King
Love God--Live Large

OK this is a good example of the sarcastic responses that I did not want

Excuse me, Steven, but I believe you have imputed intentions/motivations to me, in fact, that are untrue. What gives, and why do you feel the need to accuse me?

Paul,

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful response. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer some of these issues. Like I said I came from under 20 years of Armenian theology so I am still coming to terms with much of what the bible REALLY teaches regarding these matters. But responses like this are very helpful. I am getting a better understanding.

THanks

-----Added 6/5/2009 at 01:36:19 EST-----


Trevor,
Thanks I will check that out. I guess I am not alone in my thoughts

BTW My brother is a huge surfer in Florida. He is 47 now lives in Costa Rica and surfs all day . He is well known as a phenominal surfer and has been in a few surf magazines. Narly!

STeve

-----Added 6/5/2009 at 01:44:56 EST-----

i feel no need, just responding to what I percieved to be apparent sarcasm by your comments.

Well, I assure you I wrote with no sarcasm and I'm really not sure how you gathered such. Nonetheless, Godspeed to you and your endeavors.

"Lives in Costa Rica and surfs all day." Very cool!

I've often dreamed of doing that; set-up a little shack, talk Theology, and support a local Reformed church, surf all day...maybe in my retirement years.

Usually when people make comments like "what makes you think" in regards to something they said and ends with "my friend" denotes a bit of sarcasm, at least where I come from

but if you say you were not then my humble apology

Steven,

I didn't say "what makes you think." I asked "What gave you the idea . . .?" The question wasn't sarcastic, nor rhetorical, but a genuine question. Motives, etc. are very difficult to discern via the internet, but it's helpful to assume the best when you read here, as opposed to the worst. I will, however, refrain from calling you friend if it's a stumbling block to you in our communication. I assure you I meant no harm, and only good, from it.

no problem my friend

Steven,

Just keep reading!!!

For what Josh recommended being not sarcastic about experiential religion, read the following (I think most would agree, it can be hard reading, but if you keep reading books like them, you'll get the hang of it):

Holiness by JC Ryle
Look up "Puritan Paperbacks" And read any of them. They are all good.

__________________
Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

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