Thread: God's role and man's in salvation

Which of the following statement reflects your biblical understanding of God and man's role in salvation?

Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

I voted #2. Very hard to come to terms with that God is entirely sovereign. I am starting to really have compassion on those who don't understand it because it is hard to wrap your mind around and fully understand then after that, believe. But, I think that God allows that knowledge to BE known.

Ok, forgive me my friend but I have not voted. I don't think I fit into any of them.

God chose those to save before the creation of the world. Those people will turn and repent in the fullness of time. But those who do not repent are responsible for their own destruction.

How does that work? haha my friend, God here lets us see a little bit into the eternal sovereign works of our mighty king. I humbly bow in confusion. I don't understand. Nor do we need too. Truth is as follows

- God chooses who will be saved

So why preach?

Because my Lord told me too!

End of story for me!!!

Final point, I find this doctrine the most encouraging doctrine of all. Because if it was up to us to persuade someone to repent noone would ever get saved. Our Job is to glorify God in preaching. When we preach and people reject God is glorified in his justness. When we preach and people repent we have been blessed that God has let us see someone repent.

Its all God- none of me! Praise The Lord!

Calvin on II Peter 3:9

So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way. But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world.

Like this is a no-brainer. Umm, Aren't we all supposed to be Calvinist's here?

<insert pearching on fence waiting for the first arminian to vote emoticon here>

Originally Posted by Grymir

Like this is a no-brainer. Umm, Aren't we all supposed to be Calvinist's here?

<insert pearching on fence waiting for the first arminian to vote emoticon here>

Beat me to it Grymir. I was going to post that exact thing.

I think if we get anyone who answers the first, third, or fourth choices I would say it's time to re-examine the filtering process here on PB.

Originally Posted by Solus Christus

I think if we get anyone who answers the first, third, or fourth choices I would say it's time to re-examine the filtering process here on PB.

Muhahaha this poll IS the filtering process.

Still waitng. hmm, as I sit on my fence and wait to see if there are any arminians, I have to wonder - how would Barth vote?

It would seem that the Arminians are far too clever for this trap. Does anyone have some "Essence of Prevenient Grace"?

Originally Posted by Grymir

Still waitng. hmm, as I sit on my fence and wait to see if there are any arminians, I have to wonder - how would Barth vote?

From what I understand of Mr Barth, he would vote for position 2 and add a post explaining:

God choosing to save some and pass by others is "true." However, this is "true" only in the sense there is a nonhistorical (or symbolic, or mythical) meaning in it.

I thought someone would choose a man-centered view and argue to death it was really a God-centered view, if you hold it up to the light, squint and stick out your tongue.

Originally Posted by Scott1

Originally Posted by Grymir

Still waitng. hmm, as I sit on my fence and wait to see if there are any arminians, I have to wonder - how would Barth vote?

From what I understand of Mr Barth, he would vote for position 2 and add a post explaining:

God choosing to save some and pass by others is "true." However, this is "true" only in the sense there is a nonhistorical (or symbolic, or mythical) meaning in it.

Originally Posted by Barnpreacher

Calvin on II Peter 3:9

So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way. But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world.

I think this quote fits very well with what Edwards decribes as the narrow and wide angle lens. I believe that God desires that none should perish (narrow angle) but people perishing fufills His greater desire (wide angle); the maximum display of His glory. On that basis (His maximum glory) He elects some for salvation and elects the rest for destruction. I voted for number 2 and agree with it, but I do still believe God does not desire the death of the wicked in the narrow sense though He does in the wide.

To quote great Vince Lombardi "what the heck is going on around here?"

I must say I am dismayed at some of the responses.
I am a Calvinists and voted for #2.

But I was not born a Calvinist and it took time and God's grace before
I grasped the facts.

Are we so exclusive that we will not allow someone struggling with
Calvinism, who is still learning that we would exclude him from PB?

If that is the case, I am ashamed for all of us.

Originally Posted by pmkadow

I must say I am dismayed at some of the responses.
I am a Calvinists and voted for #2.

But I was not born a Calvinist and it took time and God's grace before
I grasped the facts.

Are we so exclusive that we will not allow someone struggling with
Calvinism, who is still learning that we would exclude him from PB?

If that is the case, I am ashamed for all of us.

I don't think non-calvinists are rejected from membership here for any snobbish reasons, its for practical reasons. This is a page for people with a specifically calvinist view. If everyone were allowed in we would just be debating with arminians all the time as opposed to dealing with issues that we calvinists have.

Originally Posted by pmkadow

I must say I am dismayed at some of the responses.
I am a Calvinists and voted for #2.

But I was not born a Calvinist and it took time and God's grace before
I grasped the facts.

Are we so exclusive that we will not allow someone struggling with
Calvinism, who is still learning that we would exclude him from PB?

If that is the case, I am ashamed for all of us.

The poll is amusing since we had to subscribe to a Calvinist Confession for membership. However, you are correct in that one could profess subscription to a Confession without understanding some of its Calvinist implications. I assume such a case would be met with charity.

I was surprised at first because the graphic for 0 still shows a little bit of width.

WOW, talk about a concensous! LOL!

The poll is closed.

It is unanimous among those who voted, God saves only those He wants to save and passes by those He wants to pass by.

Based on posts in several thread topics going on right now, we can't say everyone fully understands or is persuaded of the truth of God's sovereignty in salvation. There are Arminian influenced arguments being used. It is profound doctrine, to be handled with care.

This is a point of growth and a great benefit of Puritan Board, but not everyone has fleshed out the implications of this important Reformed Doctrine.

Everyone who voted, at least, knows what they are "supposed to" believe. This is remarkable, the first unanimous result poll I have seen on Puritan Board.

May not be relevant to this post.

2 years ago, I always eat at a Muslim restaurant for lunch near my office back in Shanghai. I got familiar with the owner of the restaurant. I asked him one time, does God want all to be saved. He said yes He did. Then I said, why there are people who perish, he said because they don't believe in God. I asked him, if God want all to be saved, why He didn't save those who don't believe and make them believe in Him. He said, God does God's work and man does man's work, God cannot help you to finish your work, you have to do it yourself.

What a religon of man it is!

God's heart is to save every man but He does not force any to choose Him

Some Calvinists call this the well meant offer.

God saves only those He wants to save and passes by those He wants to pass by

Some Calvinists take exception to the phrase "passes by".

God saves all those who first truly want to be saved

Some Calvinists call this the conditional covenant.

God saves whoever He forsees will truly repent and choose Him

No Calvinists believe this I hope.

Originally Posted by YXU

May not be relevant to this post.

2 years ago, I always eat at a Muslim restaurant for lunch near my office back in Shanghai. I got familiar with the owner of the restaurant. I asked him one time, does God want all to be saved. He said yes He did. Then I said, why there are people who perish, he said because they don't believe in God. I asked him, if God want all to be saved, why He didn't save those who don't believe and make them believe in Him. He said, God does God's work and man does man's work, God cannot help you to finish your work, you have to do it yourself.

What a religon of man it is!

WOW!

Sorry I missed this opportunity. I would have been an odd man out and voted for #1.

Originally Posted by Dr. Bob Gonzales

Sorry I missed this opportunity. I would have been an odd man out and voted for #1.

Please explain...