Does regeneration precede faith?

Pilgrim · #1 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 04:43 PM

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Regeneration happens simultaneously with justification, not before it. I have excellent antecedents in the Reformed faith for thinking so: John Calvin, Richard Gaffin, Sinclair Ferguson, and the entire WTS faculty. Calvin believes that union with Christ is the basic soteric category in which all other things are comprehended. Within that broad category, there are justification type benefits and sanctification type benefits that occur simultaneously with God’s gift of faith to the believer. On this basis, I reject utterly the view that justification depends on a prior infusion of grace in regeneration. The infusion and the imputation occur simultaneously, neither one dependent on the other, neither one separated from the other in any way, including time. The mechanism of justification differs radically from the mechanism of sanctification. This simultaneity is at the very least hinted at in WLC 77. I realize that some Reformed authors place regeneration before faith in time. I do not see any biblical passages that teach this. On the contrary, when regeneration happens, faith is present. Similarly, when faith is present, justification has also happened. Hence, faith lays hold passively (because the righteousness is extra nos, although ours by right of union) of Christ’s righteousness in justification, and actively (because it includes a real, actual righteousness in the believer) lays hold of Christ in sanctification by the power of the Spirit.

While I haven't done a lot of study in this area lately, I have been thinking a little about this issue and tend to agree with Lane here at this point.

Thoughts?

bookslover · #2 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 04:53 PM

Well, and just off the top of my head, from God's side, the elect are justified from all eternity in His mind. From the human side, a person must be regenerated so that he can exercise faith in Christ (also a gift from God [Ephesians 2]). Once he believes, justification is his - God pronounces Him justified.

So, it seems to me that regeneration must precede justification - since no person can do anything of spiritual worth until his heart of stone has been replaced with a heart of flesh.

This is looking at it from the human side, of course.

North Jersey Baptist · #3 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 04:56 PM

Whether it happens simultaneously or not, the event transpires so quickly as to make the passing of the components without separate distinction. I don't believe there are regenerate individuals who have waited days, months or years before they have exercised saving faith.

Scott Bushey · #4 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 04:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Lane Keister says no:

Quote:

Regeneration happens simultaneously with justification, not before it. I have excellent antecedents in the Reformed faith for thinking so: John Calvin, Richard Gaffin, Sinclair Ferguson, and the entire WTS faculty. Calvin believes that union with Christ is the basic soteric category in which all other things are comprehended. Within that broad category, there are justification type benefits and sanctification type benefits that occur simultaneously with God’s gift of faith to the believer. On this basis, I reject utterly the view that justification depends on a prior infusion of grace in regeneration. The infusion and the imputation occur simultaneously, neither one dependent on the other, neither one separated from the other in any way, including time. The mechanism of justification differs radically from the mechanism of sanctification. This simultaneity is at the very least hinted at in WLC 77. I realize that some Reformed authors place regeneration before faith in time. I do not see any biblical passages that teach this. On the contrary, when regeneration happens, faith is present. Similarly, when faith is present, justification has also happened. Hence, faith lays hold passively (because the righteousness is extra nos, although ours by right of union) of Christ’s righteousness in justification, and actively (because it includes a real, actual righteousness in the believer) lays hold of Christ in sanctification by the power of the Spirit.

While I haven't done a lot of study in this area lately, I have been thinking a little about this issue and tend to agree with Lane here at this point.

Thoughts?

Hi Chris, Board

I couldn't resist this one..........

If Lane is referring to conversion, I agree; If he literally means regeneration, I disagree.

North Jersey Baptist · #5 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Bushey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Lane Keister says no:

Quote:

Regeneration happens simultaneously with justification, not before it. I have excellent antecedents in the Reformed faith for thinking so: John Calvin, Richard Gaffin, Sinclair Ferguson, and the entire WTS faculty. Calvin believes that union with Christ is the basic soteric category in which all other things are comprehended. Within that broad category, there are justification type benefits and sanctification type benefits that occur simultaneously with God’s gift of faith to the believer. On this basis, I reject utterly the view that justification depends on a prior infusion of grace in regeneration. The infusion and the imputation occur simultaneously, neither one dependent on the other, neither one separated from the other in any way, including time. The mechanism of justification differs radically from the mechanism of sanctification. This simultaneity is at the very least hinted at in WLC 77. I realize that some Reformed authors place regeneration before faith in time. I do not see any biblical passages that teach this. On the contrary, when regeneration happens, faith is present. Similarly, when faith is present, justification has also happened. Hence, faith lays hold passively (because the righteousness is extra nos, although ours by right of union) of Christ’s righteousness in justification, and actively (because it includes a real, actual righteousness in the believer) lays hold of Christ in sanctification by the power of the Spirit.

While I haven't done a lot of study in this area lately, I have been thinking a little about this issue and tend to agree with Lane here at this point.

Thoughts?

Hi Chris, Board

I couldn't resist this one..........

If Lane is referring to conversion, I agree; If he literally means regeneration, I disagree.

Who is this stranger amongst us?

greenbaggins · #6 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 05:00 PM

It should be noted that the reason I am stressing the simultaneity of regeneration and faith is that we cannot say that infusion precedes imputation. Of course, it is not strictly necessary to conclude that imputation is dependent on infusion even if infusion came first (which would commit the post hoc, ergo proper hoc ("after this, there because of this") fallacy). However, the dangers are evident in Wilson's position, in my opinion.

North Jersey Baptist · #7 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bookslover

Well, and just off the top of my head, from God's side, the elect are justified from all eternity in His mind. From the human side, a person must be regenerated so that he can exercise faith in Christ (also a gift from God [Ephesians 2]). Once he believes, justification is his - God pronounces Him justified.

So, it seems to me that regeneration must precede justification - since no person can do anything of spiritual worth until his heart of stone has been replaced with a heart of flesh.

This is looking at it from the human side, of course.

Richard, you have a human side?

Greg · #8 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Bushey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Lane Keister says no:

While I haven't done a lot of study in this area lately, I have been thinking a little about this issue and tend to agree with Lane here at this point.

Thoughts?

Hi Chris, Board

I couldn't resist this one..........

If Lane is referring to conversion, I agree; If he literally means regeneration, I disagree.

Who is this stranger amongst us?

Could it be? Doth mine eyes deceiveth me?

danmpem · #9 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 05:37 PM

In regards to the original post, there have been disagreements with the very definition of regeneration within the Reformed and Augustinian circles. I also believe that supra's and infra's will reason it out differently as well.

Greg · #10 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Whether it happens simultaneously or not, the event transpires so quickly as to make the passing of the components without separate distinction. I don't believe there are regenerate individuals who have waited days, months or years before they have exercised saving faith.

So could it be said that it is more of a logical order of salvation?

greenbaggins · #11 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Hi Chris, Board

I couldn't resist this one..........

If Lane is referring to conversion, I agree; If he literally means regeneration, I disagree.

Hmm, could you unpack this one a bit? Are you drawing a distinction in time between the time of conversion and the time of regeneration?

Joshua · #12 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 05:51 PM

Scott Bushey!

North Jersey Baptist · #13 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Whether it happens simultaneously or not, the event transpires so quickly as to make the passing of the components without separate distinction. I don't believe there are regenerate individuals who have waited days, months or years before they have exercised saving faith.

So could it be said that it is more of a logical order of salvation?

Greg, you can say that about the ordo salutis. But as I said previously, "... the event transpires so quickly as to make the passing of the components without separate distinction."

bookslover · #14 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Richard, you have a human side?

Only when there's no full moon...

turmeric · #15 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 07:19 PM

Scott Bushey! Oh, somebody else already said that!

BobVigneault · #16 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 08:40 PM

Hubub hubub hubub scottbushey hubub hubub hubub scottbushey hubub hubub hubub............... SCOTT BUSHEY!!!!!!!!! (Somebody pinch me.)

Ron · #17 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 09:02 PM

Certainly there is no temporal delay between regeneration and justification. Notwithstanding, regeneration must precede justification in logical order because as was the case with Christ as the second Adam, the declaration of our righteousness is predicated upon our being raised in Christ from the dead. Accordingly, we are justifed because we have been raised in Christ; yet we are not raised in Christ because we are justified. The logical order must, therefore, be first regeneration, then, justification.

Ron

toddpedlar · #18 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 09:03 PM

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Originally Posted by joshua

Scott Bushey!

Thanks, Josh, for that stirring addition to the discussion

btw,

, Scott!

Scott Bushey · #19 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 09:26 PM

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Originally Posted by greenbaggins

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