Does God Show Grace to the Reprobate?

Sonoftheday · #1 (**permalink**) 12-17-2007, 06:38 PM

Does God Show Grace, in any form to the reprobate??

1. Yes, this grace was purchased by Jesus on the Cross.

2. Yes, this grace was not purchased by the cross.

3. No, whatever theyre given that appears to be grace is only to add to thier judgement.

Davidius · #2 (**permalink**) 12-17-2007, 06:51 PM

Good poll!

Sonoftheday · #3 (**permalink**) 12-17-2007, 07:07 PM

Im really too ignorant to follow all of the discussion that is going on over on the John Piper Limited Atonement thread, but I think that this is the topic that is being disputed the most. The other reason I posted it as a poll is because I honestly cant answer the question.

On one hand how can a Holy, Perfect, God show grace to sinners unless by Christ.

On the other hand how can grace for the Reprobate be bought by Christ if he did not take any of their sins upon himself, nor impute any of his righteousness to them.

On the third hand, it goes against the teaching of Common Grace I have always understood.

Amazing Grace · #4 (**permalink**) 12-17-2007, 08:46 PM

Absolutely not.

SoliDeoGloria · #5 (**permalink**) 12-19-2007, 08:55 PM

Yes, this is shown by Jesus' teachings to love our neighbors and our enemies.

moral necessity · #6 (**permalink**) 12-19-2007, 11:07 PM

Sure he does! Hence, the doctrine of common grace, and the difference between it and saving grace. If there were no grace or mercy shown to the unregenerate, then every unregenerate person would be unrestrained and wicked to the nth degree. There would be no varying degrees of wickedness manifesting itself in the world. All unregenerate would be like devils, since "they are of their father the devil". In my mind, the absence of grace and mercy is what hell is for. If the unregenerate are without some degree of grace and mercy now, then they are already experiencing hell, and their awaiting judgment would be no worse. With my imperfect and still impaired understanding, that's how I would answer the question at this time. A good reference is "A Treatise on Grace" by Jonathan Edwards. Soli Deo Gloria published it in 2002 as a 66 page paperback under the title Standing in Grace. An excellent read!

Zenas · #7 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 12:11 AM

I am of the persuasion of number 2.

I believe that grace is shown to the reprobate, but not by the Cross. I think that it is more accurate to say that the cross bought mercy for the elect, not necessarily grace, I may be incorrect here though. I make a distinction between mercy and grace which is expounded upon by A.W. Pink in "The Attributes of God", which I have conveineintly misplaced. If anyone has a copy and knows what I am talking about, maybe they can shed some light there.

bookslover · #8 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 01:48 AM

Yes, the reprobate experience God's common grace.

historyb · #9 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 02:35 AM

Yes, the way I figure it God causes the rain to fall on the righteous and unrighteous.

sotzo · #10 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 08:44 AM

If somebody told me that I was going to come into existence in another life, live in ease and complete well being all my days, but that at the end of that life I would experience eternal pain and suffering....would that be grace? Wouldn't it be grace to have not brought me into existence in that other life in the first place?

Hence, I say no.

toddpedlar · #11 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by historyb

Yes, the way I figure it God causes the rain to fall on the righteous and unrighteous.

I really fail to see how this is in any way "grace". Is it grace to give to someone the tools with which
they will effect their own death? Suppose that a neighbor desperately wanted to hammer some nails in his house to
hang up some pictures, but had no hammer. Knowing that it would explode upon first contact with a nail,
you hand him a handy unpinned hand grenade for him to use as a hammer.

Was yours a gracious gift?

Davidius · #12 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

Quote:

Originally Posted by historyb

Yes, the way I figure it God causes the rain to fall on the righteous and unrighteous.

I really fail to see how this is in any way "grace". Is it grace to give to someone the tools with which
they will effect their own death? Suppose that a neighbor desperately wanted to hammer some nails in his house to
hang up some pictures, but had no hammer. Knowing that it would explode upon first contact with a nail,
you hand him a handy unpinned hand grenade for him to use as a hammer.

Was yours a gracious gift?

The tricky part for me is the context in which that statement is made. Christ says "Love your enemies." Why? "For he makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?"

So is Jesus saying that our love for enemies is a reflection of God's love for his enemies? Does that mean that these acts really are in some way "gracious," and not merely acts meant to heap up more judgment?

Amazing Grace · #13 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarolinaCalvinist

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

Quote:

Originally Posted by historyb

Yes, the way I figure it God causes the rain to fall on the righteous and unrighteous.

I really fail to see how this is in any way "grace". Is it grace to give to someone the tools with which
they will effect their own death? Suppose that a neighbor desperately wanted to hammer some nails in his house to
hang up some pictures, but had no hammer. Knowing that it would explode upon first contact with a nail,
you hand him a handy unpinned hand grenade for him to use as a hammer.

Was yours a gracious gift?

The tricky part for me is the context in which that statement is made. Christ says "Love your enemies." Why? "For he makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?"

So is Jesus saying that our love for enemies is a reflection of God's love for his enemies? Does that mean that these acts really are in some way "gracious," and not merely acts meant to heap up more judgment?

Grace of man to man is not grace from God to man. To say, "He is very gracious, just means he is nice, very friendly"

The reason we are told to do this is becasue it actually brings more judgement upon them. "Heaping hot coals on their head" This is a symbol of judgement.

This thought of the sun and rain is misleading. Can I conclude then when there is a drought, God is not gracious? Or in the antarctic where there is no sun nor rain for months, God is not being gracious?

We love our enemies becasue we are told to do that. God is not bound by this obviously since He destroys all His enemies. WItholds the Gospel, blinds them, deafens their ears.

We are not to repa evil for evil, Vengeance is the Lord's.

I also have a question with poll's, why are they anonymous? Can we not see who voted for what? There is a tendancy for those who are in the minority not to express themselves openly. I find this disturbing. From what I gather here, me and Todd are no voters, yet 12 people voted no, so where are the other 10? Speak up or dont vote!!!!!!

Davidius · #14 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarolinaCalvinist

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

I really fail to see how this is in any way "grace". Is it grace to give to someone the tools with which
they will effect their own death? Suppose that a neighbor desperately wanted to hammer some nails in his house to
hang up some pictures, but had no hammer. Knowing that it would explode upon first contact with a nail,
you hand him a handy unpinned hand grenade for him to use as a hammer.

Was yours a gracious gift?

The tricky part for me is the context in which that statement is made. Christ says "Love your enemies." Why? "For he makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?"

So is Jesus saying that our love for enemies is a reflection of God's love for his enemies? Does that mean that these acts really are in some way "gracious," and not merely acts meant to heap up more judgment?

Grace of man to man is not grace from God to man. To say, "He is very gracious, just means he is nice, very friendly"

The reason we are told to do this is becasue it actually brings more judgement upon them. "Heaping hot coals on their head" This is a symbol of judgement.

This thought of the sun and rain is misleading. Can I conclude then when there is a drought, God is not gracious? Or in the antarctic where there is no sun nor rain for months, God is not being gracious?

We love our enemies becasue we are told to do that. God is not bound by this obviously since He destroys all His enemies. WItholds the Gospel, blinds them, deafens their ears.

We are not to repa evil for evil, Vengeance is the Lord's.

I also have a question with poll's, why are they anonymous? Can we not see who voted for what? There is a tendancy for those who are in the minority not to express themselves openly. I find this disturbing. From what I gather here, me and Todd are no voters, yet 12 people voted no, so where are the other 10? Speak up or dont vote!!!!!!

raekwon · #15 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 02:27 PM

Is it not grace for God to even allow a sinner his next breath instead of pouring out his wrath immediately upon birth?

Pilgrim Standard · #16 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 03:02 PM

If Christ would not have made substitutionary atonement then would Adam and Eve would have been cast into hell immediately upon sinning? Does this not carry on to the reprobate? How is it that a reprobate can take a single breath of air if it is not for common grace? What is the grounds for common grace. I dare say it is the Sacrifice of Christ. Those who disagree that common grace was purchased by Christ and is extended to the sinner must answer the question, “How does the reprobate yet live on this earth when the punishment for sin is hell?” If they live because God is longsuffering then is this longsuffering not the common grace of God? If the grounds for this common grace is not Christ then what are the grounds by which his forensic judgment may be delayed?

caddy · #17 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 03:02 PM

I voted no. As rational and moral beings, we are endowed with a capacity to recognize what is intrinsically worthy of our gratitude. If our daily existence is not one of awe and appreciation to God, how can it be said that He is gracious to us? Not telling, just asking. *** shrug *** Giving Him our undying gratitude, that is only graciously given by His hand to us, we acknowledge just how gracious He is--to us. Is He really gracious to the reprobate, or just long-suffering with them?

Even Nietzsche was reported at times that he was overcome by "gratitude." So, what are we to make of reprobates like Nietzsche who was "thankful" yet had NO OBJECT for that thankfulness? He may have been overwhelmed by many of God's great gifts in this life, but they all pale in comparison to His greatest gift. Nietzsche's object should have been Immanuel, God with us (Us:His elect ), But God in His infinite wisdom chose not to show Nietzsche.

Still however, overwhelmed by this fact it is my daily duty to befriend the lost and encourage and pray for those who are not of this mind in hopes that God will graciously work through me and bring one more soul to His kingdom...for His glory and His honor, Amen?

Pilgrim Standard · #18 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 03:15 PM

God "causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matt. 5:45).

If this is not Grace then words have no meaning.

Mayflower · #19 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim Standard

God "causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matt. 5:45).

If this is not Grace then words have no meaning.

It's providence!

Sonoftheday · #20 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 03:48 PM

I still have not voted because I am not completely swayed one way or another.

I am leaning towards no though because of this.
God shows grace to his elect. How can a just God show grace to those who are ill deserving? Because Christ is our(the elect) mediator, and his atonement was substitutionary. Christ is not the mediator for the reprobate so how can God remain Just and show them grace at all??

Joshua · #21 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 04:14 PM

We need a definition of grace then. Obviously there's saving grace, which only the elect receive. Then there is what people have termed common grace. I don't know if grace is a good descriptor of God giving the reprobate rain, breath, temporal earthly things. In fact, all these things He gives to His enemies ultimately only heap further condemnation on them at judgment. Are there places in Scripture where these temporal things given to the reprobate are called "grace?" Or is it that grace always carries with it the ultimate end of salvation? I think I would go with no, in that God doesn't show grace to the Reprobate.