Thread: did you notice this about Reformed folk...

Have you ever noticed this about Reformed folk...

Most Christians I know could care less about theology and how to understand it better...mostly they are content with the way things are and if you bring up "justification" or something theological...they just don't really care.

I was talking about theology vs "the Shack" and I could find nobody that I know except those on this forum, that really thought it was a bad thing to read something like that, or that they even recognized that it had twisted theology....

it seems that the mainline Christian is just not interested in delving into things as Reformed folk are.

Now, I did have ONE Christian Arminian friend who LOVED talking about theology and such...but he's gone now....

This is not true in every particular situation but many look to the example set by their pastor. Sadly, many non-reformed pastors don't like to talk theology and they are the example that their members follow. Also, theological sermons get the wheels turning in your mind and cause you to consider theological issues but a lot of churches preach watered down messages or are always preaching on the same topics. Their hearers are not familiar with many theological terms. This has been my experience as I came out of churches where this was the case. Once again, it is not true everywhere but seems to be pretty common in non-reformed churches.

Yep...seems Christianity is all about you and your "relationship" with gawd. There is no need to discuss the Bible or anything else because that's all man-made but your warm fuzzies are all that matters.

Originally Posted by SemperEruditio

Yep...seems Christianity is all about you and your "relationship" with gawd. There is no need to discuss the Bible or anything else because that's all man-made but your warm fuzzies are all that matters.

that and studying the Bible would be like hard and stuff.

I think anybody is interested in theology if you help them develop that interest. There is a common problem that has both a philosophical and theological base that divides the head and the heart and sees the intellect as sort of getting in the way of true religion. There is also a historical problem where Fundamentalists retreated from scholarship for a while and when they came back into it (Fuller Seminary) they had no Confessional grounding and went the way of liberalism.

I am increasingly convinced that solid Confessions are the only way that you can have a vibrant intellectual study of the Word that leads to true Worship and doesn't run the great risk of running completely off course like theology does that has no Confessional moorings.

That said, as I noted before, I've found that when you go into the Churches where people are doctrinally impoverished and teach them good theology, many fall on the Word like hungry children who never knew they were starving.

I'm not sure mockery of those who have a shallow understanding of the Word of God and its importance in one's life is really the right response. We should be weeping for those under such a delusions.

I have noticed that reformed people are more into their faith than those who are into false liberal paganistic ideas of Christianity.
Only reasonably so, though.

They may be babes in the Lord who are being sanctified in these areas just as we all are. Understanding deep theological concepts is not a prerequisite for salvation though we should grow in Christian maturity and piety. I understand what you’re saying Robert about people not having interest in theology. However, each person does have a “theology” though it may not be worked out with precision and accuracy as the Reformed Confessions but they do have a loose theology.

Let me through this out there. I’ve been in many situations where the topic is so “theological” that it becomes a head game. This is the temptation within the Reformed camp turning theology into mental and intellectual elitism. I’m not saying this is the case universally (usually with the newly reforming) nor am I minimizing the need for the strict rigorous intellectual study of the Word of God and the confessions. I just want to balance this with head and heart Christian devotion. A good place to start this mind and heart exercise is with Heidelberg Catechism written with pastoral tenderness and theologically sound devotion to God.

All in All we should do our theology on our knees.

Before I was exposed to Reformed teaching and expository preaching (within the last decade), I didn't even know there was much to talk about beyond basic evangelism.

It was an Arminian going into Charismania who actually got me to discover The DoG. He gave such a nasty sermon about Calvinism, that I had to see if these things were what he said they were. When I questioned him, it eventually led to me getting booted out of HIS CHURCH. Thanks be to God.

I do think that reformed theology requires more study and learning, so the type of people that would gravitate towards it would be more intellectual by its very nature! There is a sense in which we've had to truly wrestle with concepts and teachings, and search the Scriptures to arrive at the place that we are today! Many of us did not grow up learning reformed theology, so for us it required the motivation to learn and grow in the deeper things of God. And I think that's the main difference! Many people are content to stay where they are, and they don't have the motivation or desire to learn deeper truths. However, it must be said, that its only by the grace of God and the desires that He's placed within our hearts to grow and learn! I don't think this is something we should pride ourselves on! Because all to often, reformed people do take pride in their knowledge, but we must recognize that its only by the Lord's grace that we even understand anything at all!

Originally Posted by rpavich

Have you ever noticed this about Reformed folk...

Most Christians I know could care less about theology and how to understand it better...mostly they are content with the way things are and if you bring up "justification" or something theological...they just don't really care.

I was talking about theology vs "the Shack" and I could find nobody that I know except those on this forum, that really thought it was a bad thing to read something like that, or that they even recognized that it had twisted theology....

it seems that the mainline Christian is just not interested in delving into things as Reformed folk are.

This is basically the attitude that one comes across in broadly evangelical Christian campus student groups, like Campus for Christ. They all seem to unconsciously Arminian/Semi-Pelagian, all seem to be devoting their attention to the warmed-over evangelical equivalents of titles from Oprah's Book Club, and show virtually zero interest in any kind of serious, systematic theological learning. They want everybody to 'believe in Jesus', but they leave people hanging by not really communicating what this means, what it entails.

Originally Posted by Blue Tick

They may be babes in the Lord who are being sanctified in these areas just as we all are. Understanding deep theological concepts is not a prerequisite for salvation though we should grow in Christian maturity and piety. I understand what you’re saying Robert about people not having interest in theology. However, each person does have a “theology” though it may not be worked out with precision and accuracy as the Reformed Confessions but they do have a loose theology.

Let me through this out there. I’ve been in many situations where the topic is so “theological” that it becomes a head game. This is the temptation within the Reformed camp turning theology into mental and intellectual elitism. I’m not saying this is the case universally (usually with the newly reforming) nor am I minimizing the need for the strict rigorous intellectual study of the Word of God and the confessions. I just want to balance this with head and heart Christian devotion. A good place to start this mind and heart exercise is with Heidelberg Catechism written with pastoral tenderness and theologically sound devotion to God.

All in All we should do our theology on our knees.

Agreed. I think good theology ought to lead to doxology and not merely to prove to others how keen our intellects are.

I think there is a tendency among some people who study the Bible to conclude that their proper understanding is directly proportional to their intellect but the Scriptures (and consequently the Confessions) consistently maintain that the Holy Spirit illumines the mind so we can receive spiritual things.

I don't fault Evangelicals for wanting to have a devotion to the Lord but I fault teachers who think that avoiding doctrine is the way to preserve that devotion. You can't have one without the other.

Sadly Reformed and Arminian Churches tend to also be divided along class lines. I am a Blue Collar worker without even a high school diploma; most Christians like me tend to be in Arminian especially Pentecostal churches. A few believers like me try to make up for our lack of education, by reading as much as we can, probably without as much critical insight as more educated believers have.

And for the record, I wasn't mocking anyone...I was genuinely sad for these folks.

I came from an Assemblies of God church, and a "Non-denominational" church and during the 4 years that I've been saved, the only time I had, or even was in the presence of a good theological conversation, was when I changed to a Reformed church and during the first "pot luck" dinner instead of talking about the new "X-Men" movie they were talking about the bible!!

that's what made me think of it.


At my old church, me and one other brother would gather 2 hours before worship and pick a topic, and discuss it....


When anybody came by to see what we were doing, they fled when they found out....


It was all about experience...


Again, lamenting, not mocking...

Originally Posted by John Lanier

This is not true in every particular situation but many look to the example set by their pastor. Sadly, many non-reformed pastors don't like to talk theology and they are the example that their members follow. Also, theological sermons get the wheels turning in your mind and cause you to consider theological issues but a lot of churches preach watered down messages or are always preaching on the same topics. Their hearers are not familiar with many theological terms. This has been my experience as I came out of churches where this was the case. Once again, it is not true everywhere but seems to be pretty common in non-reformed churches.

I'll second that thought! In my former church our original pastor and his brother who became pastor after him were much more interested in Israel and how prophecy was being fulfilled - very little of theological import was taught. The man currently in control has himself as his favorite subject and is constantly telling jokes and stories and hammering "submit and obey".....him. Needless to say, the congregtion is starving spiritually and have individual tendencies to follow whichever celebrety preacher is currently popular.

Since becoming Reformed and leaving that place dh and I have been presented with a veritable cornicopia of theology in sermons, SS lessons, books, and personal discussions. Such satisfying riches!!!

I have to agree with Yvonne. Most of the reformed people I know, including my husband and I did not grow up this way. It took hard study and prayer to undo all of the Church of Christ and pentacostal teaching we learned and even taught for most of our lives. God was gracious enough to allow us to come to the same realizations within a close period of time to each other. That way we worked it out together.

Interesting. Which comes first - being Reformed or carefully studying your Bible?

Originally Posted by Vonnie Dee

I have to agree with Yvonne. Most of the reformed people I know, including my husband and I did not grow up this way. It took hard study and prayer to undo all of the Church of Christ and pentacostal teaching we learned and even taught for most of our lives. God was gracious enough to allow us to come to the same realizations within a close period of time to each other. That way we worked it out together.

Its so nice to see another Vonnie on the board!

A few believers like me try to make up for our lack of education, by reading as much as we can, probably without as much critical insight as more educated believers have.

Don't bet on it -- much of what many of us "learned" in a classroom had to be relearned in light of God's word. In many ways, the person who has learned things for himself is the most educated -- anybody can hear big thoughts and then parrot them.

Originally Posted by rpavich

Have you ever noticed this about Reformed folk...

Most Christians I know could care less about theology and how to understand it better...mostly they are content with the way things are and if you bring up "justification" or something theological...they just don't really care.

I was talking about theology vs "the Shack" and I could find nobody that I know except those on this forum, that really thought it was a bad thing to read something like that, or that they even recognized that it had twisted theology....

it seems that the mainline Christian is just not interested in delving into things as Reformed folk are.

That's probably because those who are interested in theology usually end up seeing the light and turning Reformed.

Originally Posted by VilnaGaon

Sadly Reformed and Arminian Churches tend to also be divided along class lines. I am a Blue Collar worker without even a high school diploma; most Christians like me tend to be in Arminian especially Pentecostal churches.

Brother

I am much like yourself and I just wonder if this is true (I believe it may be) and I wonder why this is so, any thoughts?

I am a Head Custodian for a local public school system. I am blue collar and even a Southerner. The deal with me came as this. Was emotionalism and experience more important than God's word? I had to choose, and the choice has cost me greatly. But, God is the most important thing.

I said all that to say this. Folks may start off in Charismania and Pentecostalism, but God's people will come to the truth eventually. It is all in His time and in His will.

Originally Posted by rpavich

Have you ever noticed this about Reformed folk...

Most Christians I know could care less about theology and how to understand it better...mostly they are content with the way things are and if you bring up "justification" or something theological...they just don't really care.

I was talking about theology vs "the Shack" and I could find nobody that I know except those on this forum, that really thought it was a bad thing to read something like that, or that they even recognized that it had twisted theology....

it seems that the mainline Christian is just not interested in delving into things as Reformed folk are.

Now, I did have ONE Christian Arminian friend who LOVED talking about theology and such...but he's gone now....

If so many became involved in the study of scripture there wouldn't be as many Arminians.

Originally Posted by Jesus is my friend

Originally Posted by VilnaGaon

Sadly Reformed and Arminian Churches tend to also be divided along class lines. I am a Blue Collar worker without even a high school diploma; most Christians like me tend to be in Arminian especially Pentecostal churches.

Brother

I am much like yourself and I just wonder if this is true (I believe it may be) and I wonder why this is so, any thoughts?

I have often wondered about this. Here in Toronto, I have generally found that most Reformed Churches especially Reformed Baptist Churches to be very open and welcoming to all regardless of their occupations. Contrary to popular notions, I have found that the more Calvinistic a church is, the more welcoming, open and friendly it is!! Likewise the more theologically liberal a ""Reformed Church"" is, the more snobbish it is(No great loss here).
Why then do so many blue collar Christians gravitate towards Pentecostal and Arminian churches instead of Hardcore Reformed Churches where they would be welcomed and accepted?
IMHO, Reformed churches tend to be very cerebral, and far too many Blue collar Christians tend to be disdainful of ""book-learning"". I have had far too many blue-collar believers tell me that the only book that they will ever read and need is the Bible. This is just an excuse for intellectual laziness. Generally a Reformed Service(the traditional ones) has a lot of intellectual food. On the other hand, many Pentecostal services are 100% entertainment. For the intellectually lazy, that is home!
I never despise or mock my fellow Blue Collar Believers who attend Pentecostal Churches. Rather I pray that God in His Infinite Mercy would open their eyes to the cruel hoax of Pentecostalism and lead them out as He did me.

I was saved certainly arminian and desired to read the scriptures and was left to my own to come to many abhorrent understandings of what the scriptures taught. No one thought to even look twice as long as my faith maintained a strongly experiential quality to it. It is when I began to question the practices of my church and its doctrines that I became rather obnoxious to this particular church. They would see the material I began to delve into and you would think I had lost my mind in their eyes. It is a strange phenomenon and one, looking back, I cannot even begin to understand other than to say they had created a god in their own image to suit their purposes and any deviation stood to tumble this house of cards.

Originally Posted by Michael Doyle

I was saved certainly arminian and desired to read the scriptures and was left to my own to come to many abhorrent understandings of what the scriptures taught. No one thought to even look twice as long as my faith maintained a strongly experiential quality to it. It is when I began to question the practices of my church and its doctrines that I became rather obnoxious to this particular church. They would see the material I began to delve into and you would think I had lost my mind in their eyes. It is a strange phenomenon and one, looking back, I cannot even begin to understand other than to say they had created a god in their own image to suit their purposes and any deviation stood to tumble this house of cards.

I remember when I was a member of a Pentecostal church and started reading Calvin, the church held a prayer meeting to implore God to deliver me out of Calvinism.
I agree with your comment regarding idolatry. Many Pentecostals/Arminians worship a Jesus made in their own image rather than the Lord Jesus Christ presented in the Bible. Ultimately their Jesus cannot save.

Its a very interesting trend I see developing in much of the Reformed community. And that is that many people were ex-Pentecostal/Charismatic. I myself have had this same background. I grew up in the Pentecostal church, but once I starting getting into theology and learning more about the Bible, I moved towards more and more Reformed theology.

Nonetheless, it is something wonderful to observe as more and more people are hearing and learning and accepting the truth.

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

I think anybody is interested in theology if you help them develop that interest. There is a common problem that has both a philosophical and theological base that divides the head and the heart and sees the intellect as sort of getting in the way of true religion.

.......

That said, as I noted before, I've found that when you go into the Churches where people are doctrinally impoverished and teach them good theology, many fall on the Word like hungry children who never knew they were starving.

Agreed. I think topical sermons/studies referencing specific verses to biblically prove the point are spiritual water for the desert soul, or at a minimum, provoke thought. Growing up in the Roman Catholic faith, no one I knew was even familiar with most topics such as salvation, conversion, regeneration, imputed righteousness, substitionary atonement, etc. These need to be taught!

To me, to love the Lord means experiencing Him with our hearts AND minds. When emotions wane, the intellect takes over, when the intellect reasons too much, the emotions sustain.

Mags,
I might have a skewed viewpoint but in my experience in a non denominational and then an Assemblies of God church, I only found myself and two other people who cared to delve into scripture past what they thought it meant on the surface...

Their eyes would glaze over when doing anymore than that.

Right before I left that church I was sitting with a brother (the only other theology-head) and we got to talking about Romans 9...he said that he'd never thought about what was in it....

So we started to read it together and his eyes got big and he said..."wow...I never knew that was in there...I guess I have to believe it, eh?"


Well, upon hearing this; one of the senior elders came up and said..."that's that Calvinism stuff you guys are talking about right?"

And I said..."well...it's just the bible but yes...predestination, election, etc...you could call it Calvinism as a label"

His reply?

"Didn't Calvin murder that Servetus guy?"

that was the best he could do as a reply to the passages we were reading.


When I said that no..."Calvin did NOT kill Michael Servetus, but more importantly, Calvin's personal habits have no bearing on the truth of Romans 9 or not..."

He just said..."well, that's how you read it..." and walked off...end of conversation.

That's pretty representative of my experience.

[quote=VilnaGaon;647339][quote=Jesus is my friend;647305]

Originally Posted by VilnaGaon

IMHO, Reformed churches tend to be very cerebral, and far too many Blue collar Christians tend to be disdainful of ""book-learning"". I have had far too many blue-collar believers tell me that the only book that they will ever read and need is the Bible.

Ain't that the truth!!

My dh was an elder at our former church and as he was beginning to be Reformed he tried to share his excitement with the pastor and fellow elders only to be shot down with the admonition not to get puffed up with knowledge.

At one service (in their terms, "meeting") the wife of one of the elders made a disparaging remark about "Caaaaalvinisssssmmmm" in a tone that made it seem like a four letter word. Dh and I still laugh over that one!!

But seriously, the folks in these types of churches need our compassion and prayers because they are so impoverished spiritually but think they are rich and prospering in their souls. If only they knew the richness of what Christ has done for us and who we are in Him! Becoming Reformed was for me like being born again all over again and almost three years in a PCA congregation has done more for me spiritually than all of the 28 years in our former church. I pray that the Lord will bring His people out of such environments into churches where His Word is faithfully exposited and lived out.

Just a side note.....many bemoan the fact that it seems as if few are saved into the Reformed faith. That may or may not be true. BUT.....we should be so very grateful that there are Reformed churches ready to welcome and nourish those from Arminian/charismatic/pentecostal backgrounds whose eyes the Lord has seen fit to open and whose spirits are hungry for His truth.

I stayed at my old church because I loved the people there and I thought (naievely) that I could influence some there to begin to question the things that they've been fed.

I have to agree hearily with this comment:

Becoming Reformed was for me like being born again all over again

It really was...what a beautiful and humbling experience.

I have a friend (by contrast with those mentioned in this thread) who I've been discussing theology with for a few years...and one day about a year ago we got onto Romans 9...

Long story short, he called me the next day in tears...he said that he had read it and the light just "went on" and he was so excited that he read it and talked to his grown son about it during dinner, his son was not impressed so they talked and talked and re-read, and then DING! the light went on in his son's head, and my friend said they were both sitting at the dinner table crying...the truths were so humbling and beautiful...

Originally Posted by rpavich

Have you ever noticed this about Reformed folk...

Most Christians I know could care less about theology and how to understand it better...mostly they are content with the way things are and if you bring up "justification" or something theological...they just don't really care.

I was talking about theology vs "the Shack" and I could find nobody that I know except those on this forum, that really thought it was a bad thing to read something like that, or that they even recognized that it had twisted theology....

it seems that the mainline Christian is just not interested in delving into things as Reformed folk are.

Now, I did have ONE Christian Arminian friend who LOVED talking about theology and such...but he's gone now....

There are other non-mainline, non-reformed groups out there that talk theology. Conservative evangelical churches/denom's and independant bible churches can actually be quite good. And don't forget Church of Christ!

Evidently I haven't been hanging around the right people!

Originally Posted by rpavich

Most Christians I know could care less about theology and how to understand it better...mostly they are content with the way things are and if you bring up "justification" or something theological...they just don't really care.

No. I typically find that most of my relations in the past don't mind talking theology, they just prefer bad theology. I've also had the experience of having people yell at me for stating Biblical truth clearly in a way they hate and shutting down all future theological conversations. As I said, most of my friends from my past just prefer bad theological conversation (Shane Claiborne, Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, Emergent Village, etc.).