Parchment and Pen Calvinists, Let’s Calm Down

Calvinists bad:
Arminians (characteristically) good:


I just finished downloading the lectures from "The Theology Program" and found the above on Mr. Patton's blog.

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Conscience may lash us, but it cannot replenish a languishing life. Conscience may be God's word and minister to you, telling you of your faults and your follies and your destitution. It may point out, but it will never supply you. Christ must give you new life. Hart has well expressed it: "He to the feeble and the faint, His mighty aid makes known; and when their languid life is spent, supplies it with His own." - J. K. Popham

I would have to say that I agree with him about the vitriolic nature of many Calvinists, especially those who are 'new' to the theology. Debate doesn't change a heart, and anger doesn't help communication.

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We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
1644/46 LBC
My Blog - Imprimis

Yes, does it seem to you that many "new" Calvinists go through an angry period?

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Lance G. Marshall
Pastor
Georgetown, Indiana

I believe (and have experienced in my own walk) that most new Calvinists go through a "cage phase" (a time when they'd do the kingdom a favor if they'd just lock themselves away in a cage somewhere). One's zeal for truth overides one's tact and common courtesy to the point where ascerbic exchange replaces edifying dialogue. It happened in me, and I've seen it firsthand in others.

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Donald Jacobs
Roanoke VA.
Covenant Reformed Episcopal Church.

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

People are who they are, and change will come by the Spirit of God, in the believer...unfortunately, many believe anger isn't characteristic of Christ and the Apostles...well, maybe you all need to read a bit more.

But, with that said, it should only be when needed to drive away wolves in sheeps clothing; those that are deceiving (trying to, anyway) young believers...

I must admit though, when preaching, one MUST consider to whom they are preaching, and that those that are lost sinners, should be approached respectfully, and we not be suprised at they antagonism.

Those professing a false Christ...well at times even I get nasty!

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Duane
Lighthouse Bible Church (Independent Reformed)
Delavan, WI

Election is the Good News (Gospel)

What good work must we do to inherit the Kingdom of God?
THIS is the WORK OF GOD, that ye believe on Him in Whom He hath sent.

Its seems as though many "new" Calvinists go through a prideful period if anything....its so easy to become puffed up, and when we finally come to this "new understanding" we feel that we are obligated to TEACH others and point out their errors! I think its pride which often leads to anger and arguing with others unfortunately! But, thank God....He humbles His people over time!

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Yvonne
Reformed Presbyterian
Currently seeking a Church

"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -T. Brooks

Actually, it was an angry, "new" Arminian/Pelagian who set me on the road to Calvinism. Not his intent, I'm sure .

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Ashley
Crossbridge Community Church
Texas
vincit qui patitur

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! Romans 11:33 NASB

Not sure if this applies, but about 12 years ago, while I was debating whether to leave the church I was at (Calvary Chapel), I met a bunch of guys from Bahnsen's old church. And I was so turned off by Presbyterianism, that I told myself I would never join a church that produced such horrible people. They were all dripping with arrogance and self-superiority, it made me sick to be in their presence.
I'm not saying the whole church was this way, just everyone I met from that church was.
Oh wait, I did meet Gentry, and he was a very nice guy.

Anyway, by God's grace, He led me to a wonderful OPC, where the people were quite hospitable and humble. I thank the Lord that not all Calvinists are self-righteous, arrogant elitests.

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Alex - Orange County, CA - PCA

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but
Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by
faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Galatians 2:20

Manton - "The sovereign dominion of God is a great prop to our faith."

I can identify with what he writes about "internet Calvinists." Some of the most vitriolic and ugly fights on the net take place with, between, or at the hands of Calvinists. This is to our shame. Some of the most "Christian" men of God I know are either Arminian or Pentecostal. Do I believe that they are wrong? Duh! But, it embarrasses me when they evidence the fruit of the Spirit so much more evidently than some of us more theologically correct types. And, no, I'm not talking about the "nice" Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, or Jew. I'm speaking of people in Christian churches who read the same book, pray to the same God, depend upon the same Jesus for their standing with God, and look forward to his return. It shames us that our more correct theology is not matched at times by verbal maturity in what we say to other folks (and to each other!) on the internet. I wouldn't phrase it exactly like Patton does, but find much to nod my head to in his description . . . sadly.

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Note the exchange of comments at the end of the blog article. IMO it illustrates very well just what the author was refering to in his blog.

I came from Calvary Chapel as well, I never experienced the cage period although I have always had a reputation for being blunt. I know when I become reformed I shared the DoG with several of my CC friends and many open their eyes to it.

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Julio Perez
Visting Branch of Hope OPC hoping this will be my home church.....


“No…we are all priests. Your vocation and your contentment in your vocation should not be dependent upon your being in vocational ministry or in being a figure of public acclaim. If God wills that fine…if He does not do that, you ought to still do what he has granted you to do to the glory of God.”

-Martin Luther

Perhaps sometimes its simply the utter blindness of the Arminians to such plain and simple texts as Romans 8, Ephesians 1, etc., that leads a young Calvinist to be so hostile and angry during debate. Surely anyone here can admit that it is a bit frustrating to discuss theology with people who endlessly qualify text after text that are so clearly teaching the opposite...

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Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis

I think those are just things defeated Arminians say about Calvinists.

Just kidding . . . sorta

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Maturity with teach the young Calvinist to back up and try a different avenue of approach (attack).

Most arminians I meet only pose rhetorical attacks against Calvin and Calvinists. I rarely see serious exegesis posed against Calvinism, I suppose because many contemporary Christians are ignorant about the issues and are arminian by default.

Very true.

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"I thank Thee that many of my prayers have been refused. I have asked amiss and do not have, I have prayed from lusts and been rejected, I have longed for Egypt and been given a wilderness".-Unknown

Julio, Amaya
Clifton, NewJersey
Reformed Baptist Church of North Bergen

I think Calvinists often forget we're ultimately on the same team with Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. They may be wrong in their theology on some points and this leads to broader problems that should be addressed, but in the final analysis they are indeed brothers and sisters. I would never speak to my familial brother in the vitriolic way some Calvinists speak to non-Calvinists...

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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

I went through the phase. I was going to a local mega-church and saw (and still see) error everywhere. I was aflame to teach as many as I could the DoG. After about six months, I realized how arrogant I was being.

I still desire to teach others, not just the DoG, but the whole counsel of God. I no longer want to see mere "converts" to Calvinism, but men and women growing in love with Christ. I hope I've learned some humility since those fiery first days.

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Ben Castaneda
member of Faith Presbyterian Church (PCA)
San Antonio, TX
MDiv student at WSC
Escondido, CA

"Not all prison bars are made from metal, And not all prisoners walk about in chains." -Lysander from Weatherby, Earl of Gloucester

One observation I might make (if this doesn't make me sound too rascally!) is that I think it has little to do with Calvinism per se. From observing myself and those around me, I think one of our inherited sinful tendencies is an intellectual "I'm right, you're wrong!" pride which comes from embracing any concrete ideology, especially when either we are young, or it is young to us. It just so happens that, within the current evangelical climate, Reformed theology is one of the few intellectually rigorous "philosophies" held by the common man; and, being the most common and visible rigorous system of doctrine (as opposed to perhaps less intellectually demanding systems -- I mean, really, who is going to be confrontational about truths in a fundamentally egalitarian or relativistic belief system?!), we get singled out. But I would contend that any intellectual, philosophical, academic or religious system which has a robust, detailed and nuanced dogma will produce the same results. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing; and, though I am still far from this state, my observations suggest those with more knowledge are much more temperate. As Reformed Christians, we have the added benefit that the Spirit himself will also make us more temperate.

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Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade. --John Calvin

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This is true, that over time a Calvinist learns how to discuss things with other persons in a less angry way.

But what I'm proposing is that perhaps it is not always pride or whatever on the part of the Calvinist. I think it very possible that a person be frustrated at another for missing the point of a very clear text or stubbornly clinging to a bad interpretation of a verse or two. Now, it is clearly improper to explode in anger, or to call another names, just because his eyes are closed and yours are opened, but I am doubtful to the claim that it is always pride on the part of the Calvinist that causes the hateful behavior.

I'm tired of Calvinist being accused of being arrogant and nasty. I think a better thing to say is that some people who hold to the doctrines of grace have a lot more grace in which to partake....in other words they were arrogant and nasty before accepting the doctrine of grace which Calvin put forth. Calvinism didn't make them that way they were that way to begin with.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

I think it is important to note that just because someone claims to be a calvinist or an arminian for that matter, it does not mean that they are actually a christian. I'm currently reading a book by Jonathan Edwards amply called, "Religious Affections". One of the main tenets is that the devil can produce in those who are not saved, essentially an external replica that is found in devout saints. I became a calvinist about a year ago, but it was not until I was what I believe to be a fairly well grounded Christian.

Just remember Calvinist is not necessarily synonymous with a redeemed, elect, sanctified saint of Jesus Christ.

IMO the person that most new Calvinists are mad at are THEMSELVES for being duped for a while. That can be unfortunately transfered to the next cluster of people they discuss doctrine with.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

I don't see the blog making a distinction between new and mature Calvinists.

I'm pretty sure I'm right about this, and that all Arminians are wrong. Yep. I think that a good predestined kick in the rear would accomplish much.

"Old" Calvinists (that is, they've been Calvinist a long time; folks like R.C. Sproul, Al Mohler, J.I. Packer, etc.) are some of the most gracious people out there.

The blog seems to be refering to "internet Calvinists" I think alot of these folks probably would fit into the new Calvinist category as many are most likely young and not too many Christians are "raised Calvinist" these days.

Some of us are sharing experience. Youthful zeal without wisdom often gets people over the top and beat to the bottom.

The answer is a Calvinist Jihad: Picturing The Absurd: "Worse Than Muslims"?

Nor does an overzealous Calvinist's bad behaviour change the orthodoxy of their interpretation of the gospel. (Am I fitting a stereotype here???)

So where do we draw the line? Is saying, "Dear brother, you are in error" with a smile enough of a warm fuzzy to get me off the 'evil Calvinist' hook?

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Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

I think all of you are softies. It's time to imprison all non-Calvinists. We need to step on the necks of everyone . . . RAHHHHWWWARRRRR!!!!!

They do?

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Norm
IA PCA

In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5

Hey, that's my friend's site! He always had a lot of good info!

Liberty's prez, Ergun Caner, is what Josh is referencing:

OK, that ticks even me off!!! As much as I want to opine for tolerance and maturity, there is something about Ergun Caner that can reduce me to a snarling cage-stage Calvinist in about 3 seconds.

Is there any way I can possibly put that "TULIP will dominate the world" picture in my signature?

I am, of course, being fully facetious, Folks. (nice alliteration, and I'm not even a Baptist minister)

One of the things I promised myself when studying Calvinism(aside from not slipping into hyper-Calvinism, which I did anyway by accident) was that I would not engage anyone in debate or discussion on the topic until I could handle it with meekness and humility. The only person I have so engaged thus far is my dad, and that seemed to go over pretty well. But meekness and humility can be really hard when you know you're right.

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Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

So wait... do you guys mean to say that Arminianism is something that you can't beat out of people?

I have a couple in my basement that, I think, are starting to turn...

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Nathan Tyler
Reformed Baptist
University of Toronto (Student: Hons. B.A. in Philosophy)
Ontario, Canada

1689'er

http://nathantyler.wordpress.com

Of course they do. You remember, once they've sawed the head off of the infidel and taken his women and children.

(Did I say that out loud?)

I will not calm down! urm, well maybe. Ok, fine.

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Josh Taylor
Verde Valley Reformed Chapel, OPC
Cottonwood, AZ