Calvinism is not unbalanced!

Benjamin · #1 (**permalink**) 06-08-2008, 10:33 AM

To any of you having been in conversation about Calvinism and Arminianism you are bound to find a "peace-keeper" who attempts to try and find "unity" between Calvinism and Arminianism. I have had the experience before of someone telling me that each system is on the extreme, and that when they work together, they show more accurately the biblical understanding of God and man.

I find this unsatisfactory for the following reasons,

1. Calvinism doesn't attempt to show an extreme view of God's Sovereignty, but a biblical one. Arminianism on the other hand does not show an extreme view of man's responsibility but an unbiblical one involving such philosophical concepts as free-will.

2. Calvinism attempts to show the biblical relationship between divine Sovereignty and human responsibility and is not worried about how they fit together logically. They attempt, as Paul in Romans 9, to profess both, yet silence the mouths of those who think it is foolish and unjust. Arminianism, because it attempts to please man's sinful affections and act as a cowardly theology, attempts to explain God's Sovereignty away, unlike Job, because of the suffering man goes through. The philosophy thinks that teaching that God is Sovereign even over evil is unhelpful and will cause someone to abandon the faith. Calvinism on the other hand realizes that this teaching can offend people, yet realizes its benefit in confirming the comfort and faith of God's elect, and making them more able to trust God in His giving AND His taking away.

I think it is better to say that Calvinism attempts to please God, and only man in so far as it does not err in God's Word, while Arminianism on the other hand, attempts to please man, even if it errs with the Word of God. I have felt this in my own heart at times, and seeing that I was formely a zealous Arminian...even to the point of being Pelagian! than any, I know many of the reasons for adopting an Arminian tendency. However, I do realize that many adopt it out of zeal for the Lord. Yet, we are to grow up into maturity. Zeal may last for a while, but without knowledge, and without a sufficient backbone in God's Word its bound to lead to ungodliness, contempt of God's Holy Law, a throwing away of His Holy Word, and a justifying of our sinful hearts. As long as man is comforted, according to this philosophy, we have done our jobs as Christians even if it means that through their comfort, God's Name is blasphemed.

Hippo · #2 (**permalink**) 06-08-2008, 11:51 AM

I could not agree more, theology is either God centric or it is man centric, I have become more and more convinced that calvinism is a logical totality, you cannot lose one element without all the others suddenly losing all meaning.

You can have a bad calvinist but his badnesss is not due to calvinism but due to his human flaws, if someone sees the Calvinistic God as a monster then they should look to themselves, not try to change God to there human image.

It is difficult but I am not sure that I agree with mediation with arminians, as long as they are inconsistent arminians then we can be brothers but we should not attempt to change our theology to accomodate them, if they are offendded then so be it but that is their choice.

packabacka · #3 (**permalink**) 06-08-2008, 10:28 PM

I'm not even sure how it would be possible to find some sort of middle ground theology involving Calvinism and Arminianism. If there exists one event in all of history where man exercises his autonomous, libertarian free will, then that event is outside God's control and He ceases to be omnipotent.

Not to mention, we are not supposed to compromise with any kinds of falsities, seeing as Satan is the lord of deception and irrationality.

ColdSilverMoon · #4 (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 08:30 AM

I completely agree with the OP.

I don't think there can be a "balance" between Arminianism and Calvinism because the two are fundamentally opposed in their approach to God and His Word. Arminians come to the (usually emotional) conclusion that there must be "free will" because a loving God wouldn't pick and choose those He saves, and try to find select, often out-of-context verses to support their claim. Calvinists just look at what the Bible says and draw their conclusions based on Scripture, regardless of how it *feels* to us.

I do believe there are many sincere and truly saved Arminians, but I don't believe we should alter our views to find a balance with a belief that is logically and Biblically flawed at its very core.

Benjamin · #5 (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 01:49 PM

Thanks for the comments guyz, very encouraging to see you guyz think the same way on this subject! On the practical side, what is a good approach in speaking to people who have gone through a great deal of suffering and who are Christians? Job said that the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, which is indeed true, but how are we to speak to those who have lost a family member, or have faced attacks because of Xenophobia in South Africa? Or we to tell them that the Lord predestined for that suffering to be there? If so, how can this be used to comfort them? I come from South Africa, and that is a big problem at the moment...

Hippo · #6 (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Thanks for the comments guyz, very encouraging to see you guyz think the same way on this subject! On the practical side, what is a good approach in speaking to people who have gone through a great deal of suffering and who are Christians? Job said that the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, which is indeed true, but how are we to speak to those who have lost a family member, or have faced attacks because of Xenophobia in South Africa? Or we to tell them that the Lord predestined for that suffering to be there? If so, how can this be used to comfort them? I come from South Africa, and that is a big problem at the moment...

It is really hard to give an answer that will satisfy the unregenerate, and not much easier to satisfy the regenerate (not that we know which is which). I have struggled with this in my conversations with people who have suffered to an unimaginable degree and we cannot use the arminian cop outs.

What we have to say is that all things will and are working to God's glory, we as finite beings cannot understand why or even how but we understand that they do. We have to explain that this world is not here to show us a good time or to provide pleasant experiences for mankind, we have to stress that such an outcome is not even possible due to sin and the sinful nature of each and every one of us (even children).

What we should always do is to share in their sorrow and suffering, the only real comfort is that our Lord shared in their sufferings and unlkike us he was blameless.

It is a really tough question and the creature creator distinction is crucial.

Benjamin · #7 (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 02:32 PM

Hi Hippo,

That is indeed very helpful advice. You are right that we need to emphasize the creature Creator distinction, and that because of sin it is inevitable that there will be sorrow in this world. I suppose a good question to ask them then is what is there heart's desire? The right response would be to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, therefore for them to know that in all things, good and bad, God is working to increase our glorifying of Him and enjoying of Him forever seeing that all things work for the good, and if all things work for the good, then their will forever be praises on our lips to the one who loves us so much.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Gomarus · #8 (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin

. . . On the practical side, what is a good approach in speaking to people who have gone through a great deal of suffering and who are Christians? Job said that the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, which is indeed true, but how are we to speak to those who have lost a family member, or have faced attacks because of Xenophobia in South Africa? Are we to tell them that the Lord predestined for that suffering to be there? If so, how can this be used to comfort them? I come from South Africa, and that is a big problem at the moment...

Which is more comforting, a God who is not in control of what happens to us, or a sovereign compassionate God who has a profound purpose in all that happens to us?

I am reminded of a quote attributed to atheist Bertrand Russell that went some thing like, "No one can sit at the bed of a dying child and believe in [a sovereign] God." Bracket mine

What would Russell say to the parents of that dying child? "That's the way it goes", or "tough luck"? What does the Arminian say? "This is not God's will, but bad things happens anyway?"

Calvinism has answers that satisfy and give hope. Arminianism is almost as pathetic as Atheism in dealing with Theodicy (the problem of evil).

ColdSilverMoon · #9 (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 03:37 PM

[quote=Gomarus;418591]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin

What would Russell say to the parents of that dying child? "That's the way it goes", or "tough luck"? What does the Arminian say? "This is not God's will, but bad things happens anyway?"

Calvinism has answers that satisfy and give hope. Arminianism is almost as pathetic as Atheism in dealing with Theodicy (the problem of evil).

I was going to write this very thing but you beat me to it...

Hippo · #10 (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Hi Hippo,

That is indeed very helpful advice. You are right that we need to emphasize the creature Creator distinction, and that because of sin it is inevitable that there will be sorrow in this world. I suppose a good question to ask them then is what is there heart's desire? The right response would be to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, therefore for them to know that in all things, good and bad, God is working to increase our glorifying of Him and enjoying of Him forever seeing that all things work for the good, and if all things work for the good, then their will forever be praises on our lips to the one who loves us so much.

Am I understanding you correctly?

That is exactly what I was trying to say.

Benjamin · #11 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gomarus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin

. . . On the practical side, what is a good approach in speaking to people who have gone through a great deal of suffering and who are Christians? Job said that the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, which is indeed true, but how are we to speak to those who have lost a family member, or have faced attacks because of Xenophobia in South Africa? Are we to tell them that the Lord predestined for that suffering to be there? If so, how can this be used to comfort them? I come from South Africa, and that is a big problem at the moment...

Which is more comforting, a God who is not in control of what happens to us, or a sovereign compassionate God who has a profound purpose in all that happens to us?

I am reminded of a quote attributed to atheist Bertrand Russell that went some thing like, "No one can sit at the bed of a dying child and believe in [a sovereign] God." Bracket mine

What would Russell say to the parents of that dying child? "That's the way it goes", or "tough luck"? What does the Arminian say? "This is not God's will, but bad things happens anyway?"

Calvinism has answers that satisfy and give hope. Arminianism is almost as pathetic as Atheism in dealing with Theodicy (the problem of evil).

Hi Gomarus.

Yes, this is helpful too. It is scary how close Arminianism is to fatalism and hence to Atheism. A consistent Arminian is an atheist because his theology rules out God's Sovereignty in matters of evil if I am correct. If he does this where does the Sovereignty for this action go to? Some will say that it is because of the wicked behaviour of people, and that those who are wicked are punished in this life and the next. Yet, what about Christians? What explanation can they give if something evil happens to a Christian? They can never say it to discipline them for God is supposedly, according to the Arminian, not in control of evil events. They can never say that the evil done to them will never be so much that they stumble for ever and fall. They can never have the faith of Job, and they can never agree with God in admitting that the devil had to be permitted to make Job suffer, yet with a restriction. Surely this shows God's Sovereignty over evil?

It is a difficult thing however to convince people that "Arminianism" is just atheism dressed up in evening clothes, that it is a teaching designed to lead one away from God and to justify the blasphemy's of atheists and liberals.