Is Calvinism the Gospel? - Page 2

VirginiaHuguenot · #41 (**permalink**) 07-02-2008, 05:19 PM

Charles Spurgeon, A Defense of Calvinism:

Quote:

I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus.

DMcFadden · #42 (**permalink**) 07-02-2008, 05:35 PM

Exactly! Thank you Andrew. I have been out with my grandson all afternoon and was preparing to post that quote.

Even allowing for rhetorical overkill, what Spurgeon was saying is that the message of Calvinism captures the truths of the Gospel more completely than alternative presentations. Can God save a sinner through an Arminian presentation? Sure! But that does not make it "OK" to dilute the Gospel through emphasizing "free will" and decisional regeneration over the biblical call to repent and believe and an emphasis upon the sovereignty of God in the Gospel.

Hippo · #43 (**permalink**) 07-02-2008, 05:57 PM

I have always shared Jonathan Edwards view that while initially (pre-conversion) the doctrines of grace appear to be "a horrible doctrine," he came to see them as being "exceedingly pleasant, bright and sweet."

Calvinism is a joyous doctrine that we talk about constantly, not only because it is true, but because it is so exhilerating and comforting. A bit like the Gospel really.

Benjamin · #44 (**permalink**) 07-04-2008, 04:06 PM

Thanks guyz for all your comments. It has been a bit hard following you guyz at first and it seemed confusing, but these things are confusing though. They are not meant to be easy I think. Calvinism is the Gospel in the sense that just as the Gospel declares the salvation is of God's Grace alone, so Calvinism shines the best light and makes the Gospel all the more clearer and delightful for us. I hope I haven't stepped over into heresy...is that sort of okay what I said???

Christusregnat · #45 (**permalink**) 07-04-2008, 04:41 PM

Dennis et al,

I have read this post, and am grateful for the thoughts people have shared.

I wanted to make a quick comment. It seems that we often confuse the psycholgical inner-workings of someone's beliefs and the beliefs themselves.

For instance, can someone call himself an Arminian and yet still be saved? Absolutely! Can someone call himself a Calvinist and go to hell? You bet. However, that does not mean that Calvinism is from the pit, and Arminianism is the gospel. It just means that God works in us in stages, and that there are hypocrites on the earth. BUT, the ideas themselves, as the Spurgeon quote so eloquently puts it, are what counts. Arminianism, as a set of propositions is heresy. Calvinism, as a set of ideas, is the gospel. When someone is an "Arminian" and a Christian, he is only an Arminian in name, but not in fact. When he prays to God, he doesn't dare say "Thank you God, that I exercised my power of free choice to be born again." He says "God be merciful to me, the sinner!" As Luther said, there is a difference between the beliefs that we feel deep down, and the beliefs that we merely like to think we believe.

Cheers,

Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Exactly! Thank you Andrew. I have been out with my grandson all afternoon and was preparing to post that quote.

Even allowing for rhetorical overkill, what Spurgeon was saying is that the message of Calvinism captures the truths of the Gospel more completely than alternative presentations. Can God save a sinner through an Arminian presentation? Sure! But that does not make it "OK" to dilute the Gospel through emphasizing "free will" and decisional regeneration over the biblical call to repent and believe and an emphasis upon the sovereignty of God in the Gospel.

py3ak · #46 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 10:13 AM

I grew up playing Tank Wars with Mr. David Cox. I think there is a sufficiently long history (and sufficiently great contemporary numbers) of Calvinist activity to rebut the charge that we only think, we don't preach against sin or pray or go or give sacrificially. To be sure, there are idle calvinists; but so far as they are idle they are bad calvinists.

Dawie · #47 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

When someone is an "Arminian" and a Christian, he is only an Arminian in name, but not in fact. When he prays to God, he doesn't dare say "Thank you God, that I exercised my power of free choice to be born again." He says "God be merciful to me, the sinner!"

This might be a case in point:

I found this online library and it looks wonderful.

The missionary has laboured fervently the world over.

Quote:

We believe in . . .

6. His power to save men from sin;
7. the new birth through the regeneration by the Holy Spirit; and
8. the gift of eternal life by the grace of God.

6. We believe in eternal security, but with the warning of Scripture for every believer to work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.
9. We do not follow the Jack Hyles line of evangelism in that the gospel is presented void of true biblical repentance (remorse and a changing of direction as to a person's disposition and attitude towards his sin), and an emphasis more on a work of prayer (acceptance) in stead of a faith reception (changing the beliefs and therefore the actions and attitudes of a person).

That mostly sounds Calvinistic to me, but here he says:

Quote:

My View on Calvinism, by David Cox

I view Calvinism as a perversion of Scripture, a serious and dangerous threat against Fundamental Christianity. I reject it wholeheartedly.

I have been a missionary for 20+ years now, and even though it means absolutely nothing to most people, I have a confirmation of my beliefs with my own personal life. I have to testify that my experience seems to be pretty consistent against Calvinism. As a missionary involved in advancing the Gospel of Jesus Christ around the world through evangelism, I have had bitter and bad experiences with Calvinists. This opinion is from my perspective of course.

First of all, the more pastors and churches get into Calvinism, the less they are concerned and deeply motivated (understand this to mean here sacrificial giving, dedicated prayer, and they themselves getting off their duff and doing something like going) about (1) evangelism, (2) preaching against sin that would lead to salvation, (3) missions, and (4) prayer to change the reality around them. All of these things seem to be against the nature of a strong Calvinist. Oh sure some here and there may make a pretense to these things, but their heart is not in it. Even in their disobedience to God (which is in believing and practicing Calvinism), even so they still have that thing in the back of the conscience that tells them they must do these things even though futile for them as Calvinism concludes them to be.

If God has truly decided every single human being's eternal destiny without any chance of changing things, then certain conclusions have to be:

(1) You cannot change anybody's eternal destiny - Why witness? Why preach the gospel? Why go out of your way to see somebody change from unsaved to saved? The bottom line here is that the Calvinist understands that his position leads him to apathy (never what God proposes in His word), but if he does this he will be punished here on earth for that. So he does something, but however so little. It has been my fortune (disfortune?) to meet some Calvinistic (Reformed Baptist) missionaries. My take on them is that they do not preach the gospel of Jesus Christ but the doctrines of Grace. This being the case, they shy away from telling unsaved people where they live and work the gospel, and they preach Calvinism. As such, their best fishing spot is in other good churches that have really saved people in them. They seek fellowship with us "pagans" (non-Calvinists) so that they can steal the most promising sheep from us. This is their evangelism. If this doesn't work, then they go head over heels into printing ministries (of course all Calvinistic authors promulgating Calvinism).

I note that election and predestination are doctrines taught to the church, and not mentioned once in the presentation of the gospel to the unsaved. In truth, Calvinists understand this, and thus they really have little to say to the unsaved, until after somebody else leads them to the Lord, and they are not ripe for the doctrines of Grace (i.e. Calvinism). I will concede that in most Calvinists is at least some decency, and they will when placed in the situation explain the gospel. My point is not that they cannot do so, but rather that it is not their goal, their thrill, their drive in their life and ministry. Calvinistic churches don't usually have strong evangelism programs, and if they do, they have conflict with the die-hards among them that have fully embraced Calvinism, and they (rightly according to the precepts of Calvinism) see it as inconsistent with their beliefs. Thus most Calvinistic pastor have to back off of Calvinism or their churches would never grow. This is where the majority of preachers are, "I'm 2 point, 3 point, (etc) Calvinist." In actuality, you have to accept the entire package or none of it. But they through bitter experience understand Calvinism is a defense of their apathy, and they have to do something sometimes or they are out of a job as pastor.

(2) Prayer is useless - At the bottom of Calvinism is an apathy that God has predecided everything, and we cannot nor should change things. This ignores that God perhaps has decided that the instrument of this will of His may be you knocking on a door to witness to the unsaved. Prayer is based in a belief that God has allowed men and the world to do "their thing" which always turns out against God's will as a rule, and that if a child of God implores God long enough, and hard enough, it is possible (not a rule though) that God may overrule these forces and do something to change what is. We who reject Calvinism live in prayer daily to change our lives and the lives of those around us. For the die-hard Calvinist, it is hard to accept the finality and futility of God's will in other matters and it not invade our prayer life to destroy it.

(3) God is evil - Calvinism answers the age old problem of theodicy (origin of sin). To them, God is the author of sin, because God has not allowed any other will other than His own to exist. There can be nothing that does not trace itself back to God as its author. Sin, eternal punishment, human willful resistance are all place on God's lap, not man's. We have to see that God created something in His image, and the part that is like God is that man has a will which becomes independent of God upon creation. God is not responsible for what man or angels do. They become agents causing sin or doing righteousness and are responsible each individual for their own actions and decisions.

THE GOOD IN CALVINISM

Let me not leave the reader at this point with all bitterness in his mouth. As a student of Church history, I have to admit that in general I prefer Calvinist authors over most other authors. Where as Pentecostals don't think but emote (concentrate on emotions and experiences), and Catholics look to mysticism, and on and on, the Calvinist thinks. This is his strong point, and in truth most Christian schools, institutes, and seminaries have a heavy representation of Calvinists on their teaching staff because they are the few ones out there that seem to be able to think through an issue. On Calvinism I disagree with their assumptions and conclusions, but at least they are thinking. I use (and prefer) Calvinist authors for most things (always taking the key issues of Calvinism with a grain of salt). This really isn't a compliment to the Calvinists out there but is a condemnation against all the rest that produce nothing of value. Just surf the web among Christian sites and you will see anything serious is usually made by a Calvinist. Hopefully my website will be an exception!

Maybe it's the case as you say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

As Luther said, there is a difference between the beliefs that we feel deep down, and the beliefs that we merely like to think we believe.

Benjamin · #48 (**permalink**) 07-05-2008, 12:17 PM

Ouch! That quote by David Cox is quite harsh. Only evangelize on pretence?! As if "Calvinists" don't have a heart for the lost...

Christusregnat · #49 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 01:31 AM

It sounds like Mr. Cox has an axe to grind.

Adam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Ouch! That quote by David Cox is quite harsh. Only evangelize on pretence?! As if "Calvinists" don't have a heart for the lost...

Semper Fidelis · #50 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 01:50 AM

Mr. Cox sounds like an open theist and a moralist as well.

Quote:

...First of all, the more pastors and churches get into Calvinism, the less they are concerned and deeply motivated (understand this to mean here sacrificial giving, dedicated prayer, and they themselves getting off their duff and doing something like going) about (1) evangelism, (2) preaching against sin that would lead to salvation, (3) missions, and (4) prayer to change the reality around them.

There is a tendency of sloth about some who wear the Calvinist name as if God controlling all things gives them excuse to ignore His commands because He'll accomplish them anyhow but this is not a defect in Calvinism but those that call themselves such.

As for what the Gospel is to this fellow, it is very strange to hear about preaching against sin that would lead to salvation. The man sounds like a moralist who sees the Gospel as the great message of "...clean up your act...."

I don't actually buy the charge that Calvinists aren't doing anything knowing many that are. I think the reason why it seems like there are few doing this is that there are few Calvinists by proportion to man's religion. The proprietors of error will always outnumber us because man's religion spreads like wildfire and guilt/moralism works as a motivator. If you want pure numbers of hands in the air then you're going to get a large Church of people being made twice as fit for Hell.

The Christian religion takes a lot of effort and discipleship and, given the shallow view of doctrine this fellow exhibits, he could stand to be discipled himself by someone who actually knows the truth rather than spreading his ignorance and error around so widely.

I used to concern myself that I couldn't impact as many lives but that was the American pragmatist in me that saw success in numbers. I've since experienced the joy in helping to build back up a Church that was in tatters as a result of these so called friends of the Gospel that are no friends at all in my estimation. Open theism may make God seem just like us and may get the sentimentalist or the guilty busy propagating more fairy tales of the God of the Universe biting his nails until we pray the right prayers but the God of the Scriptures that I serve seeks and saves the lost because they don't know where they are. I am privileged to be in a Church that knows its place and it isn't in changing men's hearts but in relying upon the power of the Gospel to do so.

turmeric · #51 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 02:07 AM

Another thing, when Calvinists do good or evangelize etc. they don't usually go around advertising the fact. You want to see a do-gooder doing good on national TV or something, watch the Poprah Winfrey!

Jeff_Bartel · #52 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Thanks guyz for all your comments. It has been a bit hard following you guyz at first and it seemed confusing, but these things are confusing though. They are not meant to be easy I think. Calvinism is the Gospel in the sense that just as the Gospel declares the salvation is of God's Grace alone, so Calvinism shines the best light and makes the Gospel all the more clearer and delightful for us. I hope I haven't stepped over into heresy...is that sort of okay what I said???

Benjamin,

I'll give you my opinion from a layperson's perspective, so please take it for what it's worth! Maybe

.

I believe that the gospel can be talked about in broader and narrower senses. Calvinism DIRECTLY interacts with a person's UNDERSTANDING of the gospel. Did Christ really SAVE you, or merely makes salvation POSSIBLE? These are not unimportant questions. It is because of this relationship between the 5 points and the gospel, that the ministers at Dort didn't take it lightly when the heresy (the reformed do still call it a heresy) arose.

The question over Arminianism is debated among the reformed. I tend to agree with the older brand of puritanism that generally viewed (IMHO) Arminianism as a system that is antithetical to the true gospel. A system that teaches salvation by works cannot save. I think that our own Rev. Winzer put it well:

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Nobody has ever been saved by believing the Arminian gospel. Yes, Arminians have been saved. Roman Catholics have also been saved. But it is in spite of the system they adhere to, and only because they believe somewhat inconsistently the true Calvinistic gospel which teaches a man is saved by faith receiving and resting upon Christ and His righteousness alone.

I have debated this subject alot in the past, and will refer you to those threads for some good discussions on this topic.

Are You Sure You Like Spurgeon? In Modern Ref...

Question Regarding Arminianism

Can a 5-point Arminian go to Heaven?

What Ideologies are Liminally Damnable?

The Arminian "god" is not Worshippable

With that I will leave you with a quote from John Owen:

Quote:

One church cannot wrap in her communion Austin and Pelagius, Calvin and Arminius. I have here only given you a tast, whereby you may judge of the rest of their fruit, their doctrine of the final apostasy of the elect, of true believers, of a swavering hestitancy concerning our present grace and future glory, with divers others, I have wholly omitted: those I have produced are enough to make their abettors incapable of our church-communion. The sacred bond of peace compasseth only the unity of that Spirit which leadeth into all truth. We must not offer the right hand of fellowship, but rather proclaim "a holy war" to such enemies of God's providence, Christ's merit, and the powerful operation of the Holy Spirit. Neither let any object, that all the Arminians do not openly profess all these errors I have recounted. Let ours, then, show wherien they differ from their masters. We see their own confessions; we know their arts, --"the depths and crafts of Satan;" we know the several ways they have to introduce and insinuate their heterodoxies into the minds of men. With some they appear only to dislike our doctrine of reprobation; with others, to claim an allowable liberty of the will: but yet, for the most part,--like the serpent, wherever she gets in her head, she will wiggle in here whole body, sting and all,--give the least, and the whole poison must be swallowed.

The Epistle Dedicatory, A Display of Arminianism p. 3

Benjamin · #53 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

Mr. Cox sounds like an open theist and a moralist as well.

Quote:

...First of all, the more pastors and churches get into Calvinism, the less they are concerned and deeply motivated (understand this to mean here sacrificial giving, dedicated prayer, and they themselves getting off their duff and doing something like going) about (1) evangelism, (2) preaching against sin that would lead to salvation, (3) missions, and (4) prayer to change the reality around them.

There is a tendency of sloth about some who wear the Calvinist name as if God controlling all things gives them excuse to ignore His commands because He'll accomplish them anyhow but this is not a defect in Calvinism but those that call themselves such.

As for what the Gospel is to this fellow, it is very strange to hear about preaching against sin that would lead to salvation. The man sounds like a moralist who sees the Gospel as the great message of "...clean up your act...."

I don't actually buy the charge that Calvinists aren't doing anything knowing many that are. I think the reason why it seems like there are few doing this is that there are few Calvinists by proportion to man's religion. The proprietors of error will always outnumber us because man's religion spreads like wildfire and guilt/moralism works as a motivator. If you want pure numbers of hands in the air then you're going to get a large Church of people being made twice as fit for Hell.

The Christian religion takes a lot of effort and discipleship and, given the shallow view of doctrine this fellow exhibits, he could stand to be discipled himself by someone who actually knows the truth rather than spreading his ignorance and error around so widely.

I used to concern myself that I couldn't impact as many lives but that was the American pragmatist in me that saw success in numbers. I've since experienced the joy in helping to build back up a Church that was in tatters as a result of these so called friends of the Gospel that are no friends at all in my estimation. Open theism may make God seem just like us and may get the sentimentalist or the guilty busy propagating more fairy tales of the God of the Universe biting his nails until we pray the right prayers but the God of the Scriptures that I serve seeks and saves the lost because they don't know where they are. I am privileged to be in a Church that knows its place and it isn't in changing men's hearts but in relying upon the power of the Gospel to do so.

Hi brother. Thanks for the words of encouragement.

I was at a service this evening, I play the piano, so I'm often called upon to play. I am playing in mom's place at the moment at a Reformed Church. Tonight the preacher spoke about "unity" between denominations, and that that is the cause why there is such disaster in South Africa. He said it is God's judgements on us because of our disobedience to put uside our differences and join together. It sounded very beautiful, but I was left having these questions on my mind,

"If it will be like this, then isn't it inevitable that no one will be allowed to criticize a teaching, because that would break the unity?" Who will be able to decide what is true or not? Also, is it only unity of the Spirit that we are to seak for, and not also unity of the faith?

It seemed like a strange message coming from a Reformed Church who should know the dangers of Arminianism to true Gospel Evangelism. Now, I see why the mass would delight in such unity. It is rather non conflictive. For instance, when a father sees his children fighting, what would be the best way to handle it? The father should go to his children and ask WHY they are fighting. He should listen carefully to each side and see if they are not just fighting over things that are not so important. If that is the case, then they should just keep to their convictions, but not make a big thing out of it. Granted. BUT, if the issue is important, what should happen? If the wrong is from one party, then that party should be disciplined. If for example the one child says that the other stole something, and he in fact did not, and they are arguing over that, would a good parent say to the children that they must just put aside their differences for the sake of unity? No! That will not help anything, for then there is not inward unity, no justice... In the same way, I think that the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism are quite large, and extensive(they affect your view on God's redemption history all over) and therefore to push them aside, for the sake of "unity" is creating more disharmony because it is treating important matters as if they are of no consequence which is also quite a slap in the face of all the godly man that have fought to keep the Church pure, Charles Spurgeon being a wonderful example of this. I have also found that this "unity" has not actually helped the Church much, but has rather made the Church more relaxed in her purity. Sins are taken less seriously, especially doctrinal ones. Also, I have found that when this teaching of "unity" is brought in, those who say "The Bible says so" are seen as extremely divisive and arrogant souls. This is deeply discouraging seeing that I am one of them, and I love God's people and have many friends from other denominations. Yet, I speak the truth to them when I can. One has to learn to lean on God's everlasting Arm...nothing else can hold a man when he is avowedly "Calvinistic", which is really a misnomer. Calvin never came up with it, it is the true religion of Christianity of which I am NOT ashamed to own. Let us UNITE on that!

cwjudyjr · #54 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Most folks are arminians when they are saved because by NATURE we tend toward works righteousness. This is true even after we are saved and therefore need to hear repeatedly, the Gospel. The Gospel is that God sent his Son into the world to save sinners. God has done all the work for His elect to come to a saving knowledge.

Calvinism does not save. Calvinism illumines.

Very well stated. Thank you!!!

Conrad

py3ak · #55 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

Mr. Cox sounds like an open theist and a moralist as well.

Quote:

...First of all, the more pastors and churches get into Calvinism, the less they are concerned and deeply motivated (understand this to mean here sacrificial giving, dedicated prayer, and they themselves getting off their duff and doing something like going) about (1) evangelism, (2) preaching against sin that would lead to salvation, (3) missions, and (4) prayer to change the reality around them.

There is a tendency of sloth about some who wear the Calvinist name as if God controlling all things gives them excuse to ignore His commands because He'll accomplish them anyhow but this is not a defect in Calvinism but those that call themselves such.

As for what the Gospel is to this fellow, it is very strange to hear about preaching against sin that would lead to salvation. The man sounds like a moralist who sees the Gospel as the great message of "...clean up your act...."

I don't actually buy the charge that Calvinists aren't doing anything knowing many that are. I think the reason why it seems like there are few doing this is that there are few Calvinists by proportion to man's religion. The proprietors of error will always outnumber us because man's religion spreads like wildfire and guilt/moralism works as a motivator. If you want pure numbers of hands in the air then you're going to get a large Church of people being made twice as fit for Hell.

The Christian religion takes a lot of effort and discipleship and, given the shallow view of doctrine this fellow exhibits, he could stand to be discipled himself by someone who actually knows the truth rather than spreading his ignorance and error around so widely.

I used to concern myself that I couldn't impact as many lives but that was the American pragmatist in me that saw success in numbers. I've since experienced the joy in helping to build back up a Church that was in tatters as a result of these so called friends of the Gospel that are no friends at all in my estimation. Open theism may make God seem just like us and may get the sentimentalist or the guilty busy propagating more fairy tales of the God of the Universe biting his nails until we pray the right prayers but the God of the Scriptures that I serve seeks and saves the lost because they don't know where they are. I am privileged to be in a Church that knows its place and it isn't in changing men's hearts but in relying upon the power of the Gospel to do so.

Mr. Cox (I can speak from personal acquaintance) would certainly reprobate the errors of open theism. And I think we could read his statement about preaching against sin to mean a preaching of the law, resulting in conviction of sin. But obviously he does have some misconceptions about Calvinism, which are verbally and practically contradicted by at least some of the Calvinists I know he knows.