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Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace discuss Calvary Chapel claims to not be Arminian in the Theology forums; While researching some stuff today, I came across an article where Chuch Smith talks about the differences between Calvanism and Arminianism and gives an assessment ...

  1. #1
    alwaysreforming's Avatar
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    Calvary Chapel claims to not be Arminian

    While researching some stuff today, I came across an article where Chuch Smith talks about the differences between Calvanism and Arminianism and gives an assessment of both.

    It was far more unbiased than I would have thought... check it out:

    Chuck Smith on the 5 Points



    This is the closing of the article, just to have something to go on if you don't have time for the whole link:

    "It is not easy to maintain the unity of the Spirit among us on these matters. It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds. God's ways are "past finding out" (Romans 11:33), and the Bible warns us to "lean not unto thy own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5). To say what God says in the Bible - no more and no less - is not always easy, comfortable, or completely understandable. But Scripture tells us that the wisdom from above will be loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not trying to find ways to divide and separate from one another. May God help us all to love each other, to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Jesus Christ has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)! In difficult doctrinal matters, may we have gracious attitudes and humble hearts, desiring most of all to please Him who has called us to serve Him in the body of Christ. Discussion - YES! Disagreements - YES! Division - NO!

    Jesus said, "By their fruit ye shall know them." When a particular position on the Scriptures causes one to become argumentative, legalistic, and divisive, I question the validity of that position. I seek to embrace those things that tend to make me more loving and kind, more forgiving and merciful. I know then that I am becoming more like my Lord. If you have come to a strong personal conviction on one side of a doctrinal issue, please grant us the privilege of first seeing how it has helped you to become more Christ-like in your nature, and then we will judge whether we need to come to that same persuasion. Let us always be certain to look at the fruit of the teaching.

    Seek those things that produce the loving nature of Jesus in our lives. I would rather have the wrong facts and a right attitude, than right facts and a wrong attitude. God can change my understanding of the facts in a moment, but it often takes a lifetime to effect changes of attitude."

    Yours in love,
    Chuck Smith
    Name Not Shown
    (to prevent my posts here from showing up on web searches of my name)
    Northland Church
    (Currently residing in Greenville, SC)

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    Semper Fidelis's Avatar
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    I'm not really a Marine. I just have a Commission in the Marine Corps and stand at attention when the Marine's Hymn is played.

    I think to be clear about terms is just divisive.

    I'm not American either. I just have a U.S. citizenship but don't want to distinguish myself from other human beings. That will just make them sad. Making people sad is divisive. Making people sad is wrong. Somebody might cry. Crying is bad.

    I think the best song lyric that sums up my feelings is: "If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right."
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    R. Scott Clark's Avatar
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    So, Chuck and his minions in So Cal are going to stop calling Reformed congregations "cults," and they're going to stop shunning those in CC who leave to become Reformed? They're going to stop attacking us personally and theologically on the radio?

    I look forward to the new tone in Southern California and to their invitation to one of us to speak in chapel in Murietta.

    rsc







    Originally posted by alwaysreforming
    While researching some stuff today, I came across an article where Chuch Smith talks about the differences between Calvanism and Arminianism and gives an assessment of both.

    It was far more unbiased than I would have thought... check it out:

    Chuck Smith on the 5 Points



    This is the closing of the article, just to have something to go on if you don't have time for the whole link:

    "It is not easy to maintain the unity of the Spirit among us on these matters. It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds. God's ways are "past finding out" (Romans 11:33), and the Bible warns us to "lean not unto thy own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5). To say what God says in the Bible - no more and no less - is not always easy, comfortable, or completely understandable. But Scripture tells us that the wisdom from above will be loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not trying to find ways to divide and separate from one another. May God help us all to love each other, to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Jesus Christ has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)! In difficult doctrinal matters, may we have gracious attitudes and humble hearts, desiring most of all to please Him who has called us to serve Him in the body of Christ. Discussion - YES! Disagreements - YES! Division - NO!

    Jesus said, "By their fruit ye shall know them." When a particular position on the Scriptures causes one to become argumentative, legalistic, and divisive, I question the validity of that position. I seek to embrace those things that tend to make me more loving and kind, more forgiving and merciful. I know then that I am becoming more like my Lord. If you have come to a strong personal conviction on one side of a doctrinal issue, please grant us the privilege of first seeing how it has helped you to become more Christ-like in your nature, and then we will judge whether we need to come to that same persuasion. Let us always be certain to look at the fruit of the teaching.

    Seek those things that produce the loving nature of Jesus in our lives. I would rather have the wrong facts and a right attitude, than right facts and a wrong attitude. God can change my understanding of the facts in a moment, but it often takes a lifetime to effect changes of attitude."

    Yours in love,
    Chuck Smith

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    BlackCalvinist's Avatar
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    I did a write up on CC on my blog a while back:

    Calvary Chapel and Truth in Advertising
    http://www.theologicallycorrect.com/...005/11/21/p198
    KG
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    There's no such thing as being in between an Arminian or Reformed. You're either one or the other.
    Scott Bushey
    Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
    Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA
    www.SemperReformanda.com

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    crhoades's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Scott Bushey
    There's no such thing as being in between an Arminian or Reformed. You're either one or the other.
    There's always full blown Pelagian...
    Chris Rhoades -33
    Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

    Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
    ""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

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    Semper Fidelis's Avatar
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    Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
    So, Chuck and his minions in So Cal are going to stop calling Reformed congregations "cults," and they're going to stop shunning those in CC who leave to become Reformed? They're going to stop attacking us personally and theologically on the radio?

    I look forward to the new tone in Southern California and to their invitation to one of us to speak in chapel in Murietta.

    rsc
    Cult is an interesting word:

    1. Presbyterian pastors have to undergo years of shepherding and education. A person need only pay admission to the Calvary Chapel Bible School.

    2. A Presbyterian pastor has to be called by a congregation in order to be ordained. Calvary Chapel Pastors are ordained if they graduate.

    3. A Presbyterian Church is only particular if it has a plurality of elders. Calvary Chapel pastors open their own Churches like a franchise owner starts a new McDonalds.

    4. A Presbyterian Pastor is answerable to his local sesssion and to the Presbytery at large. A Calvary Chapel Pastor answers to nobody. Chuck Smith even eschews the idea of pastoral accountability calling Presbyterian Pastors nothing more than lackeys to a board of elders.

    Yes, how very cultic Calvinists are. Nothing like the safeguards and Biblical forms found in Calvary Chapel.
    Rich
    Ruling Elder, Licentiate, Under Care, Hope of Christ Church (PCA), Northern VA
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    Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
    So, Chuck and his minions in So Cal are going to stop calling Reformed congregations "cults," and they're going to stop shunning those in CC who leave to become Reformed? They're going to stop attacking us personally and theologically on the radio?
    [/quote]

    Where did Chuck Smith called reformed churches cults ? Any links ?
    * Ralph Wilms (7-10-1974)
    * Church : Becoming catholic

    It is clear that he does not pray, who, far from uplifting himself to God, requires that God shall lower Himself to him, and who resorts to prayer not to stir the man in us to will what God wills, but only to persuade God to will what the man in us wills."-ST. THOMAS AQUINAS (12251274)

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    Originally posted by Mayflower
    Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
    So, Chuck and his minions in So Cal are going to stop calling Reformed congregations "cults," and they're going to stop shunning those in CC who leave to become Reformed? They're going to stop attacking us personally and theologically on the radio?
    Where did Chuck Smith called reformed churches cults ? Any links ? [/quote]

    Ralph,
    I don't know that there is any documentation per se, but having come out of the movement, I can attest first hand that the Calvarians see Calvinism as abberant and a cult of error.
    Scott Bushey
    Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
    Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA
    www.SemperReformanda.com

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    Mayflower's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Scott Bushey
    Originally posted by Mayflower
    Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
    So, Chuck and his minions in So Cal are going to stop calling Reformed congregations "cults," and they're going to stop shunning those in CC who leave to become Reformed? They're going to stop attacking us personally and theologically on the radio?
    Where did Chuck Smith called reformed churches cults ? Any links ?
    Ralph,
    I don't know that there is any documentation per se, but having come out of the movement, I can attest first hand that the Calvarians see Calvinism as abberant and a cult of error. [/quote]

    Dear Scott,

    I have een only once in the U.S, and that was in 1999, when i studied 9 months at the Calvary Chapel Bible College at Murriette Hotsprings.
    I know that the most here on the board really dislike CC, and i understand it. But to be honest i hath a wonderfull and great time there at the Bible College. I was just a new believer hath no knowledge at all from Gods Word, and through the expostionary preaching my eyes got open for the riches of God's Word. I met alot of prescious brothers and sisters from CC with whom i hath a great fellowship in the Gospel of grace. Throughs that Liberary that was on the Bible College i started to read Spurgeon, Lloyd Jones, Jonathen Edwards, John Owen & listen to tapes from John Piper. Even at the class of Missions we hath to read Piper's book on "Let the nations be glad". Iam not a Chuck Smith fan at al, and now after i embraced the calvinistic theology and Gods free Sovereinty, i see alot of error at the CC doctrine, but still i have been thankfull for the time towards God for my brothers and sisters there who helped me in studying the Word and to have communion with the TruineGod.
    * Ralph Wilms (7-10-1974)
    * Church : Becoming catholic

    It is clear that he does not pray, who, far from uplifting himself to God, requires that God shall lower Himself to him, and who resorts to prayer not to stir the man in us to will what God wills, but only to persuade God to will what the man in us wills."-ST. THOMAS AQUINAS (12251274)

  11. #11
    Scott Bushey's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mayflower
    Originally posted by Scott Bushey
    Originally posted by Mayflower
    Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
    So, Chuck and his minions in So Cal are going to stop calling Reformed congregations "cults," and they're going to stop shunning those in CC who leave to become Reformed? They're going to stop attacking us personally and theologically on the radio?
    Where did Chuck Smith called reformed churches cults ? Any links ?
    Ralph,
    I don't know that there is any documentation per se, but having come out of the movement, I can attest first hand that the Calvarians see Calvinism as abberant and a cult of error.
    Dear Scott,

    I have een only once in the U.S, and that was in 1999, when i studied 9 months at the Calvary Chapel Bible College at Murriette Hotsprings.
    I know that the most here on the board really dislike CC, and i understand it. But to be honest i hath a wonderfull and great time there at the Bible College. I was just a new believer hath no knowledge at all from Gods Word, and through the expostionary preaching my eyes got open for the riches of God's Word. I met alot of prescious brothers and sisters from CC with whom i hath a great fellowship in the Gospel of grace. Throughs that Liberary that was on the Bible College i started to read Spurgeon, Lloyd Jones, Jonathen Edwards, John Owen & listen to tapes from John Piper. Even at the class of Missions we hath to read Piper's book on "Let the nations be glad". Iam not a Chuck Smith fan at al, and now after i embraced the calvinistic theology and Gods free Sovereinty, i see alot of error at the CC doctrine, but still i have been thankfull for the time towards God for my brothers and sisters there who helped me in studying the Word and to have communion with the TruineGod. [/quote]

    Ralph,
    There is no denying that God has saved men in this setting. I as well have precious friends still involved in the movement; You have to ask yourself, what kind of curve is God grading upon in settings like these? Is He grieved over the error that they perpetuate? Is He angered over the Arminianism? If not, could God be angered at all? It cannot be both ways. The fact is, Gods people will hear the truth and that truth will set them free; in other words, they will leave CC for a setting that can be called a church of God.

    Hosea 4:6 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
    Scott Bushey
    Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
    Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA
    www.SemperReformanda.com

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    srhoades is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
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    I worked with a guy who was a Calvinist that was trying to get onboard with a Calvary Chapel missionary trip to Russia. Everything was good to go until they figured out he was a Calvinist and then they refused to let him go.
    Sean Rhoades
    Crystal Waters Fellowship
    Riverside, CA

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    Originally posted by srhoades
    I worked with a guy who was a Calvinist that was trying to get onboard with a Calvary Chapel missionary trip to Russia. Everything was good to go until they figured out he was a Calvinist and then they refused to let him go.
    Those who got to go had been chosen beforehand. They had limited accommodations.
    ~Jay~
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    srhoades is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
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    Originally posted by jaybird0827
    Originally posted by srhoades
    I worked with a guy who was a Calvinist that was trying to get onboard with a Calvary Chapel missionary trip to Russia. Everything was good to go until they figured out he was a Calvinist and then they refused to let him go.
    Those who got to go had been chosen beforehand. They had limited accommodations.
    I'm pretty sure he was chosen beforehand. The guy was going to sell all he had and relocate permantly to Russia.
    Sean Rhoades
    Crystal Waters Fellowship
    Riverside, CA

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    LawrenceU's Avatar
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    Scott, you said this earlier:

    <quote>You have to ask yourself, what kind of curve is God grading upon in settings like these? Is He grieved over the error that they perpetuate?</quote>

    From where does this first question stem? God does not grade anything. He judges. And, he does not judge on any kind of curve. That question and its preceding logic are based in works righteousness. We are saved by grace ALONE. Not one our doctrinal understanding, good works, gentle spirit, or any other such thing. Surely you do not mean what you imply.

    Yes, God is grieved over the propogation of any error. Even that which we Reformed perpetuate. None of us has it all right.
    'There's nae jouking in the cause of Christ' - James Guthrie

    We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

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    Scott Bushey's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LawrenceU
    Scott, you said this earlier:

    <quote>You have to ask yourself, what kind of curve is God grading upon in settings like these? Is He grieved over the error that they perpetuate?</quote>

    From where does this first question stem? God does not grade anything. He judges. And, he does not judge on any kind of curve. That question and its preceding logic are based in works righteousness. We are saved by grace ALONE. Not one our doctrinal understanding, good works, gentle spirit, or any other such thing. Surely you do not mean what you imply.

    Yes, God is grieved over the propogation of any error. Even that which we Reformed perpetuate. None of us has it all right.
    Brother Lawrence,
    I thought you knew me better than that? The statement was made tongue in cheek. Sorry if I was not clear; I did say :

    It cannot be both ways.
    In other words, God either grades everyone on a curve or He doesn't at all; and He doesn't, we know this, so, if this is the case, then he is judgementally angered and sickened over the errors that Calvary perpetuates. "It cannot be both ways!"

    We know God does not grade upon any curve; as you well state. That is the point. We know God hates sin and error, period. But the Calvarians believe God is 'slow to anger, abundant in compassion....hence, he will grade them upon 'a curve' that they have masterminded, only to their demise.

    I as well added the qualifier:

    Hosea 4:6 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
    Clearer?



    [Edited on 8-20-2006 by Scott Bushey]
    Scott Bushey
    Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
    Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA
    www.SemperReformanda.com

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    LawrenceU's Avatar
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    Thanks for clarifying what you were saying.
    'There's nae jouking in the cause of Christ' - James Guthrie

    We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
    Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
    LBC
    My Blog - Imprimis

    Deo Vindice

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