Al Mohler: All Babies dying in infancy go to heaven - Page 3

Ex Nihilo · #81 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bookslover

So, Hitler's life demonstrates that he was not elect; which means that he was not elect as an infant, either. The fact that he hadn't sinned yet as an infant means nothing - his non-election had already been decided by God in eternity past. If Adolf Hitler had died as an infant, he would have gone to Hell.

But no one is arguing that all infants are elect, only those who God ordains will die as infants. I totally agree with the first paragraph, but my point is simply that Hitler could not have died as an infant, because God did not ordain that he would. God had already decided in eternity past that Hitler would not die as an infant. Your hypo assumes that Hitler was not elect (and I agree) but that he could just as easily have died as an infant as not. But that isn't true -- both his non-election and non-death were foreordained. I don't necessarily agree with the view that all dying infants are elect, but it isn't inconsistent on the basis of the Hitler hypo -- the hypo is contrary to reality. It's kind of like speculating about what would have happened if Pilate had decided to spare Jesus' life -- that isn't what God ordained, so it could not have happened that way, even if such an event would not have violated the laws of physics.

North Jersey Baptist · #82 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 03:38 AM

Quote:

It's important to remember that election occurs not only before a person is born, not only before a person is conceived, but even before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So, when that infant is born within the stream of history, his or her election is already set, has already been decided by God. If the infant is elect, then, if it dies in infancy, it goes to be with God. If the dying infant is not elect, then it goes to Hell.

Richard, we don't even know this. How can we say with certainty that God, in His infinite mercy, has not elected all children who die in infancy? I think we err when we take the doctrine of election and try to cross every "T" and dot every "I". None of us know what has entered into the mind of God on this matter. We hope that he is merciful towards infants who die. In the absence of any definitive command we have no choice but to rest in His mercy.

toddpedlar · #83 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Quote:

It's important to remember that election occurs not only before a person is born, not only before a person is conceived, but even before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So, when that infant is born within the stream of history, his or her election is already set, has already been decided by God. If the infant is elect, then, if it dies in infancy, it goes to be with God. If the dying infant is not elect, then it goes to Hell.

Richard, we don't even know this. How can we say with certainty that God, in His infinite mercy, has not elected all children who die in infancy? I think we err when we take the doctrine of election and try to cross every "T" and dot every "I". None of us know what has entered into the mind of God on this matter. We hope that he is merciful towards infants who die. In the absence of any definitive command we have no choice but to rest in His mercy.

We do NOT know that God has or has not elected every infant who dies. Hence the confessional authors rightly left us with what Scripture does tell us - that all elect infants who die, die in the Lord. That is, in my estimation, a much easier thing to rest in than some hope (that is not as well founded) that a given infant who dies must have been elect because God is gracious. God's ways are not our ways, and despite the fact that we'd want every infant who dies to go to Heaven, it ain't necessarily so - for God is just as well as merciful, and if He chose to send any given infant, upon dying, to Hell, then that would be right.

North Jersey Baptist · #84 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Quote:

It's important to remember that election occurs not only before a person is born, not only before a person is conceived, but even before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So, when that infant is born within the stream of history, his or her election is already set, has already been decided by God. If the infant is elect, then, if it dies in infancy, it goes to be with God. If the dying infant is not elect, then it goes to Hell.

Richard, we don't even know this. How can we say with certainty that God, in His infinite mercy, has not elected all children who die in infancy? I think we err when we take the doctrine of election and try to cross every "T" and dot every "I". None of us know what has entered into the mind of God on this matter. We hope that he is merciful towards infants who die. In the absence of any definitive command we have no choice but to rest in His mercy.

We do NOT know that God has or has not elected every infant who dies. Hence the confessional authors rightly left us with what Scripture does tell us - that all elect infants who die, die in the Lord. That is, in my estimation, a much easier thing to rest in than some hope (that is not as well founded) that a given infant who dies must have been elect because God is gracious. God's ways are not our ways, and despite the fact that we'd want every infant who dies to go to Heaven, it ain't necessarily so - for God is just as well as merciful, and if He chose to send any given infant, upon dying, to Hell, then that would be right.

Todd, I do not dispute the confessions. The LBCF says that elect infants dying in infancy are saved and I believe that. My reply to Richard was about all infants. Do all infants that die in infancy go to heaven? The confessions say, "No". Perhaps God has elected all infants that die in infancy. We'll never know on this side of eternity. But if only elect infants are saved who die in infancy, how can we comfort greiving parents with certainty? Is there any ironclad guarantee that believing families who experience this tragedy have regenerate infants? I want to believe that. Trust me. I do.

panta dokimazete · #85 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 01:21 PM

I think we can bank on God's ultimate mercy and Christ's death is certainly sufficient to cover the inherited sin.

Does Christ's character in any way point to less than a merciful attitude toward infants?

staythecourse · #86 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

I think we can bank on God's ultimate mercy and Christ's death is certainly sufficient to cover the inherited sin.

Does Christ's character in any way point to less than a merciful attitude toward infants?

JD,

Christ's character and the Fathers character are one. They are one God "Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?

So if God was merciless to non-elect infants or infants of the non-elect in the OT He, to be consistent, he, who never changes, would be so in the New.

toddpedlar · #87 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Richard, we don't even know this. How can we say with certainty that God, in His infinite mercy, has not elected all children who die in infancy? I think we err when we take the doctrine of election and try to cross every "T" and dot every "I". None of us know what has entered into the mind of God on this matter. We hope that he is merciful towards infants who die. In the absence of any definitive command we have no choice but to rest in His mercy.

We do NOT know that God has or has not elected every infant who dies. Hence the confessional authors rightly left us with what Scripture does tell us - that all elect infants who die, die in the Lord. That is, in my estimation, a much easier thing to rest in than some hope (that is not as well founded) that a given infant who dies must have been elect because God is gracious. God's ways are not our ways, and despite the fact that we'd want every infant who dies to go to Heaven, it ain't necessarily so - for God is just as well as merciful, and if He chose to send any given infant, upon dying, to Hell, then that would be right.

Todd, I do not dispute the confessions. The LBCF says that elect infants dying in infancy are saved and I believe that. My reply to Richard was about all infants. Do all infants that die in infancy go to heaven? The confessions say, "No". Perhaps God has elected all infants that die in infancy. We'll never know on this side of eternity. But if only elect infants are saved who die in infancy, how can we comfort greiving parents with certainty? Is there any ironclad guarantee that believing families who experience this tragedy have regenerate infants? I want to believe that. Trust me. I do.

Well, the confessions don't actually say that NOT all infants that die in infancy go to heaven. All they do is give what Scripture affirms - that all elect infants dying in infancy go to heaven. The authors of the confessions sought to give voice only to what Scripture actually does teach - see Waldron's commentary for his discussion.

To give grieving parents more than Scripture says isn't comfort - it's a false comfort at best. Do we have good reason to expect that their child is in heaven? I think so. Do we know that God is just and will do according to what is right? This we DO know, and CAN affirm without any hesitancy, because the Word tells us as much. I do not believe the Word tells us that every infant dying in infancy goes to heaven - and as such, I can't advocate telling grieving parents this.

panta dokimazete · #88 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staythecourse

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

I think we can bank on God's ultimate mercy and Christ's death is certainly sufficient to cover the inherited sin.

Does Christ's character in any way point to less than a merciful attitude toward infants?

JD,

Christ's character and the Fathers character are one. They are one God "Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?

So if God was merciless to non-elect infants or infants of the non-elect in the OT He, to be consistent, he, who never changes, would be so in the New.

But if Christ's character revealed a special mercy toward children/infants, that would help interpret the Father's disposition of children/infants in the OT. Is it merciless to have children/infants temporally slaughtered if their ultimate destination is eternal communion?

Luke 18:16
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

staythecourse · #89 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Is it merciless to have children/infants temporally slaughtered if their ultimate destination is eternal communion?

No. Is there any Scriptural evidence of slaughter of the elect in the OT (either infant or adult) to gain them entrance into the presence of God. I can't think of any off the top unless King Saul counts. There was the prophet that got lied to by the other prophet and got et by a lion, but that was discipline by God....

North Jersey Baptist · #90 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Well, the confessions don't actually say that NOT all infants that die in infancy go to heaven.

Todd, going on the assumption that words mean things...

Quote:

1689 LBC 10.3:

Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases

If the framers of the confession meant all infants dying in infancy they would have said so. Unless they are implying that all infants dying in infancy are elect. Somehow I doubt that is what they meant.

Quote:

I do not believe the Word tells us that every infant dying in infancy goes to heaven - and as such, I can't advocate telling grieving parents this.

We're in agreement. That is what I was trying to articulate. It's about this time that certain people would accuse us of a heinous view of God's grace. "God would send a baby to hell because he/she is not elect?"

nicnap · #91 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 10:00 PM

...and that is only after reading half of the first page of the thread....

panta dokimazete · #92 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staythecourse

Quote:

Is it merciless to have children/infants temporally slaughtered if their ultimate destination is eternal communion?

No. Is there any Scriptural evidence of slaughter of the elect in the OT (either infant or adult). I can't think of any off the top unless King Saul counts.

There is if children/infants are elect based on the character of God revealed in Christ.

bookslover · #93 (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Todd, I do not dispute the confessions. The LBCF says that elect infants dying in infancy are saved and I believe that. My reply to Richard was about all infants. Do all infants that die in infancy go to heaven? The confessions say, "No". Perhaps God has elected all infants that die in infancy. We'll never know on this side of eternity. But if only elect infants are saved who die in infancy, how can we comfort greiving parents with certainty? Is there any ironclad guarantee that believing families who experience this tragedy have regenerate infants? I want to believe that. Trust me. I do.

Bill, I think you've answered your own question. The Confession says, rightly, that all elect infants dying in infancy go to Heaven. So, since not all infants are elect, that inevitably means that there are some infants, dying in infancy, that do not go to Heaven.

A person (not you, I know) who would try to get around this by saying that all infants are elect would be saying that all people everywhere are elect, and we know, both from Scripture and from experience, that that's not true. If everyone is elect, then election means nothing.

Back to Hitler; let me simplify: all non-elect adults were once non-elect infants. So, if Hitler had died as an infant, he would have gone to Hell.

It finally occurred to me that what we've really been talking about all this time is the doctrine of double predestination: God elects some; by not electing others, He consigns them to where they were going anyway due to their sin.

Gomarus · #94 (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 12:43 PM

Suggesting that "all who die in infancy" are elect is not the same as saying "all infants" are elect. That's why trying to relate this issue to one who does not die in infancy (a la Hitler) is hypothetical nonsense.

Davidius · #95 (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 02:40 PM

God says that He is the God of believers' children. If our children die in infancy, shouldn't we therefore have no doubt that our children are with their God?

North Jersey Baptist · #96 (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

God says that He is the God of believers' children. If our children die in infancy, shouldn't we therefore have no doubt that our children are with their God?

Where does it say that the children of believers are saved? The confessions use the term "elect infants" which presupposes there are infants who are not elect. And if children of believers are saved, how did they become saved? Is it normative for God to save in the womb without faith? And yes, I reject as normative saving faith by infants, pre-natal or post-natal. John the Baptist was not a normative situation.

Davidius · #97 (**permalink**) 07-08-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

God says that He is the God of believers' children. If our children die in infancy, shouldn't we therefore have no doubt that our children are with their God?

Where does it say that the children of believers are saved? The confessions use the term "e