I posted an article on Lincoln and Calvin this year being the anniversary of both men's birth. Hopefully this doesn't get all you Johnny Reb's dander up.

Article here: Beholding the Beauty: Positive Dogmatics: Lincoln and Calvin

Note: This is not a political article.

__________________
Steven J. Carr (Sven)
http://beholdingthebeauty.blogspot.com/
Eagan, MN
PCA
"Weak is the effort of my heart / And cold my warmest thought / But when I see thee as thou art / I'll praise thee as I ought."--John Newton
Trophy Wife/Arm Candy: Crystal Ann Children: Steven Jr. and Hannah Grace

Some things just weren't meant to go together.

__________________
Timothy
Member, PCA
Kingsport, TN

Thank you!

__________________
JC - PCA - PA...homesick for SC
A we n' de Ya, ho; I mak sikker; Deus juvat

Indicabo tibi o homo quid sit bonum, et quid Dominus requirat a te: Utique facere iudicium, et diligere, misericordiam, et sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo. Michaeas 6:8

"Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi

Hopefully you read the article though.

hmmm...it seems as if I've posted an unpopular article.

Not a big fan of Lincoln. I have a feeling that the old saying, "Who ever wins the war writes the history books" has never been better applied then in Lincoln's case. I read the article but feel that even as people try to tie in Darwin and Lincoln to Calvin's 500th year celabration it is only to take focus away from the great theologian. IMHO

__________________
Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.

You would be hard-pressed to find a more strident defender of the South than I but I must say I enjoyed your article.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

Ben,

Much of my sympathies are with the South, but I have to admit that I admire Lincoln.

Alan,

I do not think this takes away in the least bit from the greatness of Calvin. This year is an anniversary of Lincoln and Calvin and, yes, Charles Darwin. I think it is in the Spirit of Calvin to recognize that we can learn something from these men. Even if we have strong feelings against them.

Here is a difference that you could have explored.

Calvin spends all of eternity with his Savior, while Lincoln spends all of eternity in torment.

You seem to to be suffering under the mis-aprehension that Lincolns use of a few (non-specific, non-christian) references to providence make him a christian. Far from it.

We are far more likely to see two of the last three democratic presidents in glory then that evil man.

__________________
Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

Kevin,

You seem to have missed this quote from my article: "He did not have the theological acumen that Calvin had; furthermore, he never seemed to move past a generic civil Christianity into true faith..." That being said, there is a noticable difference in Lincoln's attitude toward Christianity from before his presidency to during the war. He turned more and more to religion and reading the Bible especially after his son Willie died in the Whitehouse. I'd like to give credit where it is due. You seem to pass judgment without really having ascertained the facts. Furthermore, you have usurped the position of God in judging those outside the church (1 Cor. 5:13).

And yet, his actions were worse during the war than before it...

I feel like I must have missed something... How do you know that Lincoln is in eternal torment? I'm not saying he was a great theologian (or even that he was great politically), but I can't say I've ever seen anything that would indicate that he was more unregenerate that the rest of us - or that he was unrepentant. I'm under the impression that he was a Christian - although possibly not as reformed or mature as we might like - but a believer nontheless. What have you read of his that leads you to think the contrary? (I'm genuinely curious - I hope I don't come off otherwise)

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 09:37:30 EST-----

Oh, and Sven, I really enjoyed the article. Very thought-provoking - thanks!

__________________
Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

Do you think Hitler is in heaven?

He could be.

But would you not be more likely to say that he is in torment?

Most probably said the same thing about the thief on the cross.

I'm not sure speculation about certain folk's eternal state is altogether profitable; we should, indeed, preach the woeful circumstances of those who die outside of the Lord; but we can leave those things hidden from us a mystery and trust in the righteous judgment and gracious mercy of the Lord Jesus. God can grant faith and repentance to anyone he pleases at anytime; this should be enough for us to avoid speculations on such matters. At the very least, we should avoid speculating ill of those already passed who may have shown signs in life of some form of faith. Just a suggestion, take it or leave it.

__________________
Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade. --John Calvin

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

No offense but how can abe lincoln ever live up to the service of John Calvin?

__________________
Nathan Olaf Brandal

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"
GEORGE WHITEFIELD TO JOHN WESLEY

My Blog

First Calvin is lowered to comparison with Satan's favorite president and now we have the thief on the cross on the same level as Hitler. Sheesh! Shall we now speak of the similarities between Elijah and the prophets of Baal?

__________________
Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

*properly rebuked*

No rebuke; just some thoughts.

Yes, but I was trying to make a point and it just went off rail from there

Threads on Lincoln =

__________________
Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

Probably not - but Hitler also rejected the gospel outright. Lincoln, for all of his faults, at least claimed to be a Christian - and in everything I've read of his, I haven't seen anything that would indicate that he rejected Christ. I'm not saying he was saved. I just don't know how one could claim that he was "likely" to be in eternal torment. It just doesn't fit with what the man wrote.

But I digress. As Prufrock helpfully pointed out, its not really our place to speculate to whom God shows grace.

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 10:31:48 EST-----

So I see... Goodness, I had no idea. Pity, really. He was a fascinating man.

Indeed!

I've never seen where he claimed to be a Christian though either. He was more of a spiritualist.

That's a valid argument. Lincoln's theology is certain up for argument. However, he wrote a LOT about the sovereignty of God - it was a subject that he really grappled with, especially during the war (as Sven points out). His writings (I think) point to a man who was contemplating and mediating on the Bible and spiritual matters. My own thought is that Lincoln was a theist during his early career, and came to a better understanding of the Bible during his presidency - especially during the war years. Of course, that's only my thought. I could be mistaken or misinterpreting.

If anyone is interested, there is an interesting Christianity Today article that talks about this. I was looking for another article I had read about this topic in college, but its unfortunately in an academic journal, and one has to pay for access. This article has some of the same information though. Christian History: The Puzzing Faith of Abraham Lincoln - Holidays

[quote=Montanablue;622624]You need to look into the subject a little closer. I grew up my entire life believing all that I was taught in the politically correct history text books (and of course the never biased History Channel).

The fact is that Mary Todd Lincoln didn't believe that Abe was a "technical Christian."


From the link below:

"William Herndon, himself, wrote a book called Life Of Lincoln and he stated, quite forthrightly, that "Lincoln was a deep-grounded infidel. He disliked and despised churches. He never entered a church except to scoff and ridicule. On coming from a church he would mimic the preacher. Before running for any office he wrote a book against Christianity and the Bible."

According to George Edmonds in Facts And Falsehood, as recorded on page 53 of the book: "A man named Hill was greatly shocked, urged Lincoln not to publish it. Urged it would kill him politically. Hill got the book in his hands, opened the stove door, and it went up in flames and ashes. After that, Lincoln became more discreet..." Lincoln's relatives and friends testified that he "scoffed and derided religion and the Bible."

Mr. Lincoln The Infidel by Al Benson, Jr.

[quote=kalawine;622715]Interesting article with some worthwhile points, but I notice that he only quotes Lincoln's biographers. He never quotes Lincoln directly. I've read Lincoln fairly extensively, and so unless this guy shows me some works or quotes of Lincoln that I haven't seen before, I'm not really convinced of his viewpoint. Also, he doesn't cite some of his sources, which makes me uncomfortable. I'm all for debunking politically correct history, believe me, but this guy isn't doing a very good job.

Also, as a former history major, I can tell you that the politically correct thing is to say that Lincoln was NOT a Christian. Deists/Theists are all the vogue now!

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 11:12:00 EST-----

Also, let's leave Mary Todd out of it. She's just a little too...weird...for me to figure out.

Lincoln, never joined a church, was never baptised, and never claimed to be a christian.

So how is it that he may be considered a christian?

[quote=kalawine;622715]Kevin,

William Herndon has turned out to be unreliable as a source for the life of Lincoln. He had some sort of vendetta against Mary Lincoln (understandably so, for she was not the most pleasant of ladies, plus she rejected his offer of marriage). Anybody who wants to smear Lincoln usually turn to Herndon's work. There has never been any evidence to prove that he wrote a book to discredit Christianity. As to his mimicing of preachers, he did that in his youth. Now even I have been known to mimic and mock preachers in my youth. This does not prove that Lincoln was an infidel. Benson's book is not taken seriously by any scholars. It is known to be filled with historical inaccuracy and takes many things out of context. Plus, it relies heavily on Herndon who is unreliable. In short, it distorts facts to paint Lincoln out to be an evil man; this is clearly against the ninth commandment.

Let me set the record straight since many who have read the article can't seem to read my article without their preconceived notions about Lincoln getting in the way. First, I never once claim that Lincoln was a true believer. He may have converted before he died, but as best as I can gather from the facts of his life, he never made a true profession of faith. Second, I am not equating Calvin and Lincoln. Calvin was far superior as a theologian, and has been more influential. Nevertheless I have found some interesting similarities. Lincoln grew up in a primitive baptist home, which, back then, many primitive baptists had a sort of "Calvinistic" understanding of predestination. Lincoln once said, "It is true that in early life I was inclined to believe in what is called the 'Doctrine of Necessity'--that is, that the human mind is impelled to action, or held in rest by some power, over which the mind itself has no control; and I have sometimes (with one, two or three, but never publicly) tried to maintain this opinion in argument." Admittedly this statement is vague and more prone to fatalism than Calvin's doctrine of Providence. However, during his time as president Lincoln referred more and more to Providence and took great comfort in it. Especially after his son Willie died. My point in all this is not to say, "Oh what a great Christian man he was." My point, which is stated in the conclusion, is to show how two men, who shaped not only American history but also world history, didn't claim greatness for themselves but saw themselves as instruments in the hands of a Sovereign God. Lincoln says many things about providence that echo Calvin's thought. I'm not arguing that Lincoln was Christian or that he was as good a theologian as Calvin. But I do want to give credit where credit is due. This is totally in the spirit of Calvin to do so. So I ask you all who think Lincoln is the spawn of Satan to put aside your hateful thoughts toward him and show some Christian charity. It's the Calvinistic thing to do; it's the biblical thing to do; even Lincoln was known to do it too. "With malice towards none; with charity towards all" is not a bad quote.

-----Added 5/22/2009 at 11:51:08 EST-----

"Also, let's leave Mary Todd out of it. She's just a little too...weird...for me to figure out. "

Kathleen,

Mary Todd Lincoln should be given a little slack. She lost three of her four children, watched her husband receive some of the worst criticism a president has ever received, and then watched him get assassinated. Is it any wonder that she was a little, as you say, "wierd"?

Look forward to talking more about Lincoln Sven.

Christian History Magazine brought out some interesting points a few years ago which seem to at least paint a picture of Lincoln, in the last year or so of his life, searching the Bible diligently for divine answers to the misery that was the Civil War. This new input can be traced in his later speeches. For me that at least places a question mark over whether Lincoln was converted at the end.

Bob

__________________
Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

Okay, I read the article.

I found the initial references to the legacies of both men to rub my fur the wrong way- yes, both left legacies, but I'm most uncomfortable with making such a declaration without at least offering some comparison between them- since the two legacies are on opposite sides of the social, political and ecclesiastic spectrum. The similarities between them that you mentioned are primarily of situation and not of character. This is good. Their positions, of whatever alignment, were very much derived from different attitudes- one of fervent faith and the other of pragmatism. Lincolns use of scripture is not unusual for his time- biblical ignorance was not a rampant force in America of the mid 19th century, and a politician could not communicate effectively with his constituates without such knowledge- so I place little weight upon this observation.

Your closing statement concerning reliance upon the providence of God of both men is more than suspect in Lincoln's case. Again, Lincoln was a master politician, and his use of scripture shows this. His personal life, confessions and political actions were not consistent with such a reliance- Calvin's were.

Theognome

__________________
Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.

Bill,

Your comment tells me that I need to clarify yet another thing in my article (It's a short one and I can't say everything). It is quite true that Lincoln in his early years used religion for political gain, but that is not the case in his later speeches. As I said, the strain from the war and from his son's death caused him to go to Scripture. It was quite often the case that when someone called upon Lincoln at the Whitehouse they would find him reading the Bible. His reference to Providence in his second inaugural speech is by no means a political manuever to get approval. I think it was genuine. He put a lot of thought into that statement, and he firmly believed it. I will grant you that in earlier years any references to providence (which are largely lacking, by the way) are suspect. I will not grant you that in his later years just before he died. Everything about them is genuine. Again, this does not prove Lincoln was a true believer. But it makes one pause.

Oh, by the way, biblical ignorance was rampant in Lincoln's day--the cause? illiteracy. Most people couldn't read. Oftentimes they thought they were quoting Scripture when in reality they were quoting something they heard someone else say and assumed it was Scripture.

Concerning biblical ignorance during the period, I am not in agreement with your assertion- the common writings of the day, from newspapers to slave narratives, deny this claim. And Lincolns later writings/speeches can very much be attributed to political gain- one of a state head attempting to gain the support of a population that is steeped in Christian teaching. So although Lincoln may indeed have come to true faith, one would think that actions behind words would follow; both in public and private life. I am comfortable making such an observation with Calvin- a man whose actions, right through to the point of death, were consistent with his confessions. I am not comfortable with such a claim in Lincolns case.

Theognome

-----Added 5/23/2009 at 12:31:42 EST-----

By the way, Sven, don't be surprised if this short article does not gain sweeping approval. Most common evangelicals and/or liberals will hate having their hero Lincoln spoken in the same sentence with Calvin. Likewise, most learned Reformed folk will be unhappy with Lincoln being put in any camp with Calvin. There are some folk who will appreciate such a comparison, but by the nature of the topic they would be in the vast minority.

Theognome

The illiteracy rate has been strongly debated with the US having a higher illiteracy rate in present day.

Biblical knowledge was probably HIGHER among ordinary folks in those days than it is today.

Given the discussion thus far, my assumption is that we are discussing the US. I'm not sure where you are doing your research, but I question your source materials.

According to a US Department of Education report, the illiteracy rate in 1870 was about 20%. That's no where close to 'most'.

You can start here if you don't want to dig through primary materials:

National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL) - 120 Years of Literacy

__________________
Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

[quote=Montanablue;622727][quote=kalawine;622715](1) As much as I respect your major in history (which I admittedly do not have) and your obvious intellect I must say that I think it illogical to suppose that Lincoln's biographers would be less reliable than Lincoln himself. For instance: I might keep a journal of my thoughts and deeds and sometime after my death (as if anyone would care ) they might be published. But Scott (the guy in the office next door to mine) might write a biography about me that totally obliterated my "testimony."

(2) "Also, he doesn't cite some of his sources, which makes me uncomfortable." And some of his sources he does cite does he not?

(3) "Also, as a former history major, I can tell you that the politically correct thing is to say that Lincoln was NOT a Christian. Deists/Theists are all the vogue now!" Point taken and education received! Thank you ma'am indeed!

(4) "Also, let's leave Mary Todd out of it. She's just a little too...weird...for me to figure out." If only we could! But I would argue that Abe was much more warped than Mary Todd was.

As a History Major you must be aware of how we get history. Historians must go through the information of the time they are investigating to determine what was going on at the time. (Just as we compare the works of the Roman historian Tacitus to Josephus in Christian history).

Tell me, in the works of Lincoln that you have read did Abe mention his war on civilians which was utterly disgusting and incredible to the people in the North (and the world) at the time? (In this century it has been merely winked at) WITHOUT reading Lincoln I can tell you what the people of his day said about it because I don't get my information from the criminal himself but from the history of the times in which he lived. Since you are a history major I would like to recommend a book to you.

http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/grimsley1/acw.htm

A description of the book:

"Concise, authoritative, and highly readable, this history of military operations in the American Civil War examines campaigns and changing practices in relation to Western warfare. Beginning with American military policy and the development of a professional officer corps in the early nineteenth century, the narrative carries the reader through each year of the Civil War, showing how the war moved ever closer to total warfare involving civilians as well as soldiers. Throughout, the text is supported by a wealth of photographs and maps."

The "Christian" Lincoln (I'll refrain from guessing where his soul is residing at the present time I'm not one to take the luxury of such presumption) purposefully targeted civilians as a means of winning the "Civil" War. (I couldn't resist the play on words)

Pardon me Ma'am if I suggest some more reading to you and if I ask you to please consider where you learned your history (Lincoln's writings "in damno sit"). And never forget: History goes to the victor

Sven, I think maybe I didn't phrase that right. I was referring to her theological beliefs rather than her personality. You're completely right - anyone that went through the trauma that she did would probably have some "weirdness." I do think that her theological beliefs were indeed "odd," but I have a great deal of sympathy for her as a human being. I apologize if I came off sounding judgmental of her. It wasn't my intention, but what I wrote did come off as harsh. My tone wasn't very charitable! Apologies.

Kalawine,

I am afraid that I just don't have the time to respond to everything you've said. I think we'll have to respectfully disagree and leave it at that. It wasn't my intention to get into a discussion of Lincoln's political issues or a discussion of the Civil War. From past discussions I've see on the PB, those tend to get messy really fast, and I'm not sure I want to get involved. I've had enough PB drama to last me for a while!

I do want to say that for the most part, I would agree that its important to read historical subject's own words as well as the well as the word's of those who knew them well. However, in a matter as personal as religious faith family matters, or the like, its generally best to rely on the individual's own thoughts/journals. (In my opinion).

Also, I don't dispute that there were war crimes against people in the South. I want to make that clear. Southern soldiers weren't all saints either, but that's a story for another day, and not an argument that I'm willing to get into on the PB. I'd like to remain friends with everyone here!

One last thing - I actually read portions of the book you recommend (although not the whole thing) for a history class during college. Although he has an obvious agenda, it is an interesting book and he brings some relevant things to light. (Although, we didn't read the whole thing, so I can't really comment on it has a whole). So don't think I'm completely unaware of the "the North was bad too!" argument. I'm not under the impression that northern soldiers or generals were lovely people. They were unregenerate just like the rest of us and thus capable of great evil.