that when you go to church the entire service should be oriented towards glorifying and honoring God? (Dt. 6.4-9) Is it to even be considered a church if there is no church discipline, sporadic (once every three months or so) administration of the Lord's Supper, and the preaching of the word has more jokes and funny anecdotes than faithful exposition of the word? There is no doctrinal unity at the church and no plan to bring about doctrinal unity. Everybody's nice and happy, but there is very little guarding of the tongue to discuss only those things pleasing to God on his day. I ask because for the past 4 or 5 months I have been depressed in attending church and feel myself becoming bitter over this which I do not want and would ask for prayer to guard against this. Am I expecting too much from church? I know all churches have problems and I am not expecting perfection, but I do expect the three marks of a church, doctrinal unity amongst the church leadership, and an admonishment from the pastor to discuss only those things pleasing to God at least while in church. Is even this too much?

I would appreciate all godly counsel on this issue.

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Chris Thomas | SBC-Founders | Fairbanks, AK

"Whatever the cause, the Calvinists were the only fighting Protestants. It was they whose faith gave them courage to stand up for the Reformation. In England, Scotland, France, Holland, they,... did the work, and but for them the Reformation would have been crushed... If it had not been for Calvinists,... and whatever you like to call them, the Pope and Philip would have won, and we should either be Papists or Socialists." ~ Sir John Skelton

Which would your description match more closely--a church, or a social club?

edit: The purpose of gathering together is to exhort one another and to provoke to love and good works, is it not? Do you see this in your church?

If not, I would probably take it to the leadership first of all. If they aren't receptive, I think it would be better to find some believers elsewhere who realize what gathering together actually means.

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Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

Hey, I was part of a church just like that! ...So my family left.

No, it's not too much to ask.

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Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

1) definitely a social club; Reminds me of some of the old Amway meetings at times.

2) No real exhortation at all; love is mainly a touchy-feely thing at church; fellowship is little more than sitting around and eating, so I would say no

3) The leadership is not receptive; I recommended various programs to achieve doctrinal unity including confession & catechism study. The refrain is that using a catechism is putting the catechism before the Bible. Which I find confusing since we have a confessional statement. I also suggested Beeke's Bible Workbook Study. I had also recommended a cancellation of all Sunday school classes for 3 to 4 months and that the church meet together for Sunday School and that the basic core doctrines of the Christian Faith be taught so that we might have doctrinal unity. No go there as well.

it sounds like that church is on a slippery slope. On the other hand I admire your courage JohnGill in your encouraging the fainthearted, helping the weak and being patient with them all.

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Rangerus
Southern Baptist
Austin, TX
Teacher and Volunteer
1689 LBCF & BF&M 2000

I'm afraid that what you described above is a social club and not a church.

I have seen many times the very thing you describe- a group of people who gather on Sunday for a good time. Christ gives them a reason to gather, but once together the fun begins! Discipline is not an issue in such groups, as there is no real membership vows nor ecclesiastic headship.

I call such groups CAP's, which stands for Classic American Pagans. In the name of Christ they will spew forth all sorts of nonsense, assuming that if the name of Christ is invoked, all must be well and the world will approve of their gathering. Note that most (if not all) politicians use this same CAP principle in invoking religious terminology in their speeches. As long as you mention Jesus, you can do pretty much whatever you want to.

I agree that where the Gospel is not clearly preached, no accountability amongst the saints is expected and no declaration of faith exists you are not dealing with a true Church of our Lord and Saviour, who is Christ Jesus- who shall reign forever and ever in glory and honor and absolute dominion, Amen.

Yes, true Christians may be found among such a group, but like the elect amongst cults (Mormons, Catholics, etc...) the Spirit of God will lead them either to the body of Christ in Spirit and truth, or will use them (As he did Luther, Calvin and others) to rebuke and/or reform the body around them.

I shall pray for you, my brother, that the Lord will lead you to either reform the body at hand or lead you to a true fold of the sheep of Christ.

Theognome

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Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.

Well said Bill,

In my recent studies, and with some influence from bold preaching that is exposing the pseudo Christianity that prevails in the US, I am becoming increasingly aware of the dearth of true churches around here. It's incredibly difficult to deal with the dumbing down of the treasures of the church and the glory of Christ without becoming elitist. Yet God makes it clear that we judge those within the church, leaving those without for Him to judge (1 Cor 5). With this in mind, I have become increasingly bold in my own efforts to expose the lies perpetrated in what passes for contemporary churches today in an effort to exhort us to pursue Christ with graciousness, humility, and fear, knowing that it is God who works in us to will and to do.

I think that what you're finding is exactly what you should "expect." Men are depraved, desperately wicked and desire manufactured, imagined or internal gods more than YHWH. There are high places on many American street corners, with beautiful buildings, large parking lots, decorative crosses and well manicured lawns. But it is right to desire true unity in doctrine, fellowship and love for Christ.

I'd encourage you to look around for a weak church rather than one that asserts its philosophy over the clear teaching of Scripture. May you find a church family that loves Christ and is striving to die to self and live for Christ.

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For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

Chris,

Please refresh my memory... Are you the one who (a long while back) took it upon yourself in a moment of "righteous anger" to throw away all the church's Sunday bulletins because they had a picture of Jesus on them? Is this the same church?

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Ben
Chaplain, US Army
Ft. Riley, KS
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

No it is not wrong I think you should expect that.

__________________
Martin - Reformed
Husband to the most godly, honorable and loyal wife Line
Searching for a Church
Webpage www.5solas.dk
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
Soli Deo Gloria

Yes, I didn't hand out the bulletins that violated the 2nd commandment and then after everyone had come in I threw those away. There is another thread if you wish to discuss that.

That's what I thought...

My take is a bit different.
Look, I've read the comments about this particular congregation being a "country club" and not a church... But I'd say that at the very least this evangelical church should be credited with being gracious with you. I know of many churches that would have thrown you out on your ear for taking it upon yourself to throw away their property.

I realize this isn't a Reformed church, and to the extent that it isn't then it is to be faulted. But if I remember correctly, there are no Reformed options anywhere near you. My concern for your own soul is that you're too busy looking down your nose with a negative spirit - disguised, of course, behind a "I just want them to honor God according to God's Word" front - and you're missing out on the legitimate Christian fellowship, nourishment and support you would otherwise be utterly without.

If you are THAT miserable, and there are no other options in your location, the answer is simple: Move! Just up and move and find a job somewhere else.

But my counsel to you is to stop being so negative. I realize that as we sit here reading your words it is easy to picture this church as being a den of man-centeredness. But I've been counseling long enough to know to take someone with a grain of salt.

Either quit agonizing over their imperfections or move to a place where they'll worship more in line with what you understand as being faithful.

Alaska can be a tough place to find a church. If you can't find a good church there in Anchorage, you might consider getting over to the OPC church in Wasilla just to keep from going crazy!

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/