I know why (at least I think I do) the vast majority of PC(USA) churches are going EPC instead of many other options but I'd like to hear the PB's thoughts.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

Ordination of Women is permissible but not Homosexuals which those leaving would embrace as well as the Liberty to Worship as they please with Charismatic, Liturgical, and Reformed influences.

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Wayne Whitmer
Member, Rio Rancho OPC
Albuquerque, NM

I think it is more practical than theological. The EPC has set up procedural process to make it smooth. They have set up for transition of pastor's pensions and other issues. It is ssen as a transition holding of sorts till the church can make a final decision. Don't be so quick to see the negative.

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Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

I also think that the freedom to ordain women elders is the primary factor. In the PCA they could have pseudo-women deacons, but not women elders.

There are some who claim the authority of Scripture, but still see women elders as permissible in the Word.

__________________
Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary

Not being so quick to see the negative just being real. I don't think it is an either/or reason. You are asking me not to be negative however you are in essence saying they are making decisions more with their wallets than with their theological moorings.

There are several reasons.

A primary one is practical, particularly at this point in time as many churches are trying to leave the PCUSA.

The EPC has graciously offered departing churches a very favorable "non-geographic" presbytery they can smoothly transition into. There is provision for a five year transition time where the individual church and the denomination can see if they are a good fit for one another.

There are many solid evangelical churches and evangelical church members in the PCUSA. Over the years, in the fight contending for the basic essentials of the Christian faith, they have almost lost all their Reformed distinctives. When one is contending for whether Jesus is in fact God, or whether tithe tithe money should be sent directly to Communist guerilla armies, doctrines like unconditional election tend to go to the background.

So, while there is some variation, wherever someone is theologically, they will probably find ready acceptance into the EPC as they are.

Many of the other Reformed and Presbyterian denominations have more defined Reformed standards.

I do suspect that as these churches "settle" some will migrate back toward their Reformed roots and end up in many of the NAPARC denominations.

I agree with this. I think the true conservatives left long ago, and the ones that are left now aren't conservative enough to go PCA or ARP. I've only visited one EPC church, but I didn't recognize much presbyterian in it. Another one that I know of went independent eventually. It just appears that they aren't firm on a lot of things.

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Janis
Christ Church ARP, NC
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." Eph. 1:3-6 ESV

I'm gone for a while and look at what I walk in to! My breakdown of it is going to be very simple (thanks to a LONG week in court!).

In my opinion, the EPC offers PC(USA) churches that disagree with a number of problems in the organization a place where they can still hold to the things they feel comfortable with (such as female Elders and Deacons) without fear.

In a sense, it's similar to how most martial artists will learn a variety of styles, and eventually keep what they like and toss out the rest (like Bruce Lee, for example).

One thing I admit I'm surprised by--and this may be lack of information on my part--is that while the EPC has taken steps to create a place for ex-PC(USA) churches, I haven't seen anything similar from the other bodies of Presbyterianism (PCA, OPC, ARP, etc.). Is anyone aware of anything similar to the 'New Wineskins Presbytery' from other groups in the Presbyterian family?

__________________
Henry C. Thompson, II
Member, Church Creek Presbyterian (PCA)
Summerville, SC
Husband of Narniasinger
http://hct2.blogspot.com/

Henry, I don't think PCA, OPC, or ARP would ever compromise on the female elder issue, so I don't see them being able to create a place for these later leaving PCUSA churches. The more conservative churches left earlier and joined the more conservative denominations.

I agree that there's no compromise on the issue of female elders. But I'm not so sure that all of the conservative churches have left the organization. Part of the reason that we see a number of churches leaving now is because, IMHO, some have stayed to try to fight the shift from within. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more conservative churches in the PC(USA) that have this same mindset, and I guess I'm curious as to why we don't see the Big 3 (PCA, OPC, and ARP) haven't done anything similar to 'New Wineskins.'

I admit to not knowing much about New Wineskins, but from what I can gather, they are still more liberal than PCA, OPC, and ARP. The reading list concerns me a little:

:: New Wineskins :: Association of Churches

And the interim executive director is a woman and there are several women on the leadership team.

For the record:

The ARP is a seceder denomination. They have never been part of the PC(USA) during anytime in her US history. I can see why she does not get involoved.

But the PCA and the OPC are cousins to the PC(USA) and should have welcoming arms wide open- and doing all they can to call their cousins home!

Amen!!!!

This is one the reasons I went ARP instead of PCA or OPC when I did...

The ARP actually is taking some of these congregations. My pastor oversaw the transition of one in Mississippi recently. They departed from the PCUSA and are now an ARP church.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

The PCA certainly was formed by churches who left over 30 years ago and there have been churches leaving the PCUSA and joining it ever since. I am sure their arms are open, but the churches leaving now are more egalitarian and do not wish to offend their women leaders. The line was crossed long ago that caused the truly conservative churches to leave. (Yes, there are still a very few joining PCA and ARP.)

Disclaimer...this is just my perception. It may not be right.

How many congregations are departing from the PCUSA in a given year?

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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On average? I would say 10-15.

About a year ago, when I was not as reformed as I am now, I looked into the EPC and liked how it looked on paper, Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Beliefs, Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Position Papers, Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Pastoral Letters, Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Frequently Asked Questions About The EPC.

There was one good church in our area, I liked the church but was skeptical about the denomination because of their stance on women in the ministry. Plus, I was wondering, and had heard some people say, that the influx of all the PCUSA folks was going to be bad for the EPC.

I have heard that the PCUSA is now putting up a fight in letting churches leave in the form of lawsuits. Since the PCUSA owns all its buildings it is leaving the churches that want to leave without a home.

Conservative group within the PCUSA, The Layman Online.

I have heard that the numbers are as high as 35,000 people a year leaving, entire churches. There are large groups leaving the Catholics and United Methodist churches as well.

__________________
Erick Bohndorf, Redeemer Presbyterian PCA
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pr...90&ref=profile
Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink and enjoy oneself in all one’s labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him; for this is his reward. Ecclesiastes

Here's a list for recent years. As you can see, most went EPC.

http://www.layman.org/layman/Resourc...ving-chart.htm

I was a member of Ward EPC in Livonia from early 1992 through the middle of 2000. Ward, under its pastor, Dr. Bartlett Hess (knew him around the time that he retired; he was a lovely man, albeit really not too Reformed) served as the birthplace of the EPC in the early '80s. I still have a lot of friends who are members of Ward and were on the scene when the EPC was formed. I surmise and deduce, from recent goings-on here, that there's much more to the "New Wineskins" influx of PCUSA churches into the EPC than is being made available for public consumption.

Margaret

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Margaret
Free Church of Scotland [Continuing]
Michigan

Here is a chart of churches that have departed since 2001:
The Layman Online


My understanding is that there is a block of somewhere between 150 and 250 churches that are seeking to depart right now through The New Wineskins Coalition if property and legal issues were willing.

In addition, there are many many more churches who are watching and considering such a move. These churches include those officially and unofficially aligned with various reform movements within the denomination.

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

I, too, went to Ward a few years ago, though only for a short time. I did not see anything specifically Reformed about it, but then again I have never known much about the church or the EPC.
Do the PCUSA churches that are coming over to confessional denominations (OPC, PCA, ARP, etc) seem committed to the confessions? I wonder how they could have held out that long in the PCUSA as confessional (or if they had recent changes of mind?)—it would be nice to hear some first-hand accounts of transitioning churches out of the PCUSA.

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Patrick
Covenant (OPC), Brighton, MI

Thanks, I found some facts on the demographics on the Net. PCUSA has 10,900 congregations. Losing 10-15 per year does not sound as bad as the declining membership numbers within the congregations.

There are several reasons why the EPC is the destination of choice for PCUSA congregations:

1. The most likely place where a church can keep its property. This is by far and away the most important consideration. Until recently, it was the standard procedure to dismiss a church with its property to the EPC. While many here might immediately cry "foul!" and say that theology should be the ONLY consideration, it is a very practical matter that affects the (financial) viability of a congregation. (For the record, I think theology is the most important consideration, but I think it is wise stewardship to consider the financial effects also).
2. The best place to avoid conflicts over women officers. That does not mean there are not other choices. The ARP, for example, allows women deacons.
3. The EPC is being pro-active about this. The New Wineskins Presbytery is just a part of this. EPC presbyteries have put together "theological training" and assessment systems for PCUSA elders and churches.
4. The EPC is spread out across the country (as opposed to the OPC, which is overwhelmingly northern, and the ARP, which is overwhelmingly southern), and at the same time, the EPC is small enough (unlike the PCA) to really want to expand (in a good sense) in certain areas where they are thin.

That is my understanding, with my contacts in the PCUSA Confessing Church movement and the EPC.

__________________
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

I wondered the same thing about a year ago when the EPC was pro-actively negotiating with the New Wineskins group within the PCUSA.

Remember that the EPC has "self consciously placed itself in the middle of the Presbyterian spectrum." That is their description of their denomination. What does that mean? Well, it means they are not holding to the distinctives of the Reformed Faith as a denomination. This varies a lot from church to church but the denomination is bound at present by a minimal "List of Essentials."

After fighting for the bare essentials of Christianity for years, most all the churches attempting to depart the PCUSA have lost their Reformed soteriology, for example, as the fight has been focused on issues like the diety of Christ, the Trinity, whether there are many ways to God, etc.

Also, don't forget, the PCUSA has come to require ordaining women (they moved historically from deacon only local options to elder local options to deacon required to elder required to affirmative action pressure on local congregations to ordain women). So, you have churches with a session majority ordained women, officers who don't hold the Calvinist soteriology or the Presbyterian view of the Lord's Supper, don't do church discipline, haven't discipled members or officers in the Westminster Standards, etc. (again, there are individual exceptions to this, but this is a common profile of churches departing the PCUSA now).

The EPC is providing a "safe haven" for these dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

However, they are mostly broadly evangelical, but not Reformed. A Reformed heritage but not Reformed now.

I do believe that over time, doctrine will settle and some will migrate back to their Reformed roots and end up in many of the NAPARC denominations you mention.

From my little corner, the overall idea that the EPC as a denomination is not truly Reformed seems to be incorrect. Their constitution does have a generic list of essentials but these are paired alongside the sole standard of Westminster.

Now, how they see to the proper teaching and preaching of the Westminster Standards is not within my experience, but every single EPC pastor that I have met has been solidly Reformed. Of course, I've only met a dozen or so...

As one who has seen many brothers and sisters Christ leave the husk of PC(USA) for the fair pastures of the EPC, I can attest that those sessions that have made the transition are now being trained in Westminster and they have been blessed by the encounter. Becoming more Reformed may be a slow process at times, but if a congregation is committed to the authority of Scripture and dedicates itself to sticking by the Word, then a reformation and revival is pretty much guaranteed.

But then again, I've always been an optimist about people discovering the Reformed faith!

__________________
Rev. Toby L. Brown, pastor
Jefferson Center Presbyterian Church--in, but not of, the PC(USA)
Saxonburg, PA
A Classical Presbyterian
Proud member of The Westminster Fellowship

"The happiness of the creature consists in rejoicing in God, by which God is also highly exalted." --Jonathan Edwards

That church is French Camp, MS I think...

You would be correct.

__________________
Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
Husband of Scottish Lass
My Blog: Gairney Bridge
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"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin