I know we may have trifled with this a bit in the past, but in terms of a poll - who wears a robe to preach in?

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C. Matthew McMahon, Ph.D.
John 5:39, "...search the Scriptures..."

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I don't but my pastor does.

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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

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Bath?

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Tim Smith
Baton Rouge, La
Church: http://sbrpres.org/

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."
- Thomas Jefferson

I would love to wear a robe... but I've been under the impression that wearing a robe is a sign of ordination. Am I off base here? If so, then I'd love to get one!
Ben

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Ben
Sanford, NC
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

FWIW, I do. It's not a hill on which I would die, but our congregation has come to appreciate the emphasis on "office" that the Genevan robe signifies. The GR was the tradition of the Reformed and Presbyterian churches until quite recently. It has been the victim of the Modern egalitarian spirit and an unfortunate association with Anglo-Catholicisim -- though the AC's never wear the GR; they always wear sacerdotal (priestly) ecclesiastical garb (surplice, stole etc).

Guests to the congregation have also responded well.

They seem to appreciate a serious, reverently joyful service. The younger folk are the most receptive.

It depends too upon motive. We adopted it in order to emphasize the Word and Sacrament ministry rather than our persons. If a minister adopted it to draw attention to his person or toward a sub-Reformed view of ministry then it could have the opposite effect.

rsc

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R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology

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Oceanside URC
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Ben,

Most Reformed/Presbyterian churches distinguish between "exhorting" done by licentiates and "preaching" done by ministers. The latter is the ecclesiastically sanctioned, official proclamation of the Law and the Gospel. The former is essentially a function of the laity. Unfortunately, a licentiate is in an ecclesiastical limbo, not ordained to office but functions (in the pulpit) as a preacher. Fortunately, it does not last too long.

If this distinction holds, then it would not be appropriate for an unordained man (not holding ministerial office) to wear the robe of that office. It's a little like a law clerk wearing the judge's robe or the police cadet actually carrying a gun. You might do it, but don't get caught!

rsc

__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

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C. Matthew McMahon, Ph.D.
John 5:39, "...search the Scriptures..."

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Member - Christ Presbyterian Church, Professor at WTS for Puritan History & Theology.

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Would it get kinda hot in one of those things? I thought the Puritans got rid of those things anyway? When did American Presbyterians start using them?

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Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

Dr. Robert Schueller wears one.

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Nathan Olaf Brandal
First Baptist Church of Kirkland

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Lloyd-Jones wore one. I don't know that the Puritans got rid of them. You know, it is called a Geneva gown after all. I'm thinking it was a trend in the 19th and even 20th centuries. Maybe in the 19th century on the frontier, the rise of revivalism, etc. But I'm guessing there wasn't widespread abandonment of it until the 20th century.

I wouldn't be opposed to pastors wearing gowns and think I generally agree with Dr. Clark's rationale.

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Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

Yes. Let's hope they're wearing apparel. :P

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Here are a couple of links I turned up on the "Geneva gown"

http://www.glaird.com/vestment.htm

This gown or robe is really derived from academic gowns.

http://www.answers.com/topic/geneva-gown

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Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

"Most Reformed/Presbyterian churches distinguish between "exhorting" done by licentiates and "preaching" done by ministers. The latter is the ecclesiastically sanctioned, official proclamation of the Law and the Gospel. The former is essentially a function of the laity."

I would like to learn more about this. Can you recommend any articles or books that address this? I am curious what do you mean by "ecclesiastically sanctioned, official proclamation of the Law and the Gospel?"

Thanks

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Scott Roberts
Ruling Elder, Lakeside Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Southlake, Texas

My pastor does. He has a sermon or two on ecclesiastical attire. I'll hunt for the links on our website.

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Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
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The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

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I was wrong; there were three lectures in the biblical institute hour, and not 2 sermons. Here are the links to the audio (page down to last item, after PM service in each case)
Ministerial Attire, by Rev. Richard Bacon

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

[Edited on 10-18-2005 by NaphtaliPress]

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Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
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• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
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The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

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Horton Davies has an interesting section in The Worship of the English Puritans on this subject. I tried to reproduce it last night, but lost everything I typed, so i gave up. I will try again tonight, Lord willing.

I can see some arguments why the Puritans rejected the use of vestments as they looked to find scriptural warrant for this in the scriptures. I'm not sure that they were sound arguments though.

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Jeff Bartel
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No, the puritans wore them, usually with the "tab" collar. The "vestiarian" controversy concerned the surplice, tippet, stole etc.

All of the confessional (Congregational, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Reformed) ministers wore robes until after the 2nd Great Awakening. Many wore them until until WWII.

The idea of a minister mounting a pulpit (also disappearing - most churches have, if anything, a lectern not a pulpit) or standing behind a Plexiglas lectern in a pullover sweater with a clip-on mic is a novelty.

It's not a question of when Presbyterians started wearing them, but when and why they stopped. Recently, some Presbyterian and Reformed ministers have begun to try to recover a sense of office and dignity in worship.

rsc

[Edited on 10-18-2005 by R. Scott Clark]

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R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

Every minister who rejected vestments (e.g., surplice, tippet, stole) rejected them as priestcraft and did so whilst wearing the Genevan Robe.

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, haven't we?

rsc

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R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

Scott,

It is a distinction I learned from the German Reformed (RCUS) who first taught me the Reformed faith. It is a distinction (I think) preserved in most church orders/books of discipline. I'm reasonably confident that the PCA observes this distinction and I know the URC, OPC, and most other NAPARC groups do as well.

The definition of preaching is mine, though derived from folk such as Perkins (The Art of Prophesying) and others.

Ecclesiastical sanction refers to a public, orderly, act by officers of the church acting in that office to recognize the calling, gifts etc of a man to the office of minister. All believers hold the "general office" of believer, but we distinguish between that and the special offices of minister and elder.

The practice of "licensing" goes back at least to the middle ages, though that was more a matter of where a man was allowed to minister rather than distinguishing between the licentiate and the minister.

I think American Presbyterians have made this distinction since colonial times and I guess it goes back to the Reformation.

rsc

__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

Are we to vote for our pastor or only if we are pastors?

My pastor wears a robe for the second service, which is the "traditional" format, but he does not during the first service, which is the "contemporary" format.

The "associate" pastor does not wear any robe when he preaches, but he does wear the black suit with the white dog collar on the days that he preaches.

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--chRis
Psalm 115:1

Christopher Reeder
Husband to Kara, Father to Abigail (7), Caleb (6), Grace (4 1/2), Zoë (3), Elijah (1 1/2) and Hannah (born 8/8/2008)

Member: Pilgrim Presbyterian Church (OPC), Raleigh, NC