Who teaches this?

D. Paul · #1 (**permalink**) 08-21-2007, 07:17 PM

Previously posted under "Cults etc..."

I'm not necessarily looking for explanations of differences between water baptism and Spirit baptism, but who (denominationally speaking) teaches that there is only one baptism, that being Spirit baptism when we confess Jesus as Lord and Savior?

My sister in law explained this belief to my wife and I thought it odd. Neither do they "believe in" tithing. (secondary issue)

But does anyone know what denomination teaches this? Other things that have been mentioned at times sound antinomian to me (not under law but under grace etc etc) but I 'm hoping to nail down the denom. (They attend no church locally...all via computer)

I know, I know, there are many issues wrapped up here, but for now, who teaches this? They must be hyper-dispensational but even Hagee won't go this far.

I've re-posted 'cos I really need to know! Who teaches this?

elnwood · #2 (**permalink**) 08-21-2007, 07:37 PM

You may have to be more specific. Are you looking for denominations that do not practice water baptism because of "one baptism"? Definitely sounds hyperdispensational.

Grace Gospel Fellowship and their associated churches is one such organization.
http://www.ggfusa.org/doctrinal_statement.htm

D. Paul · #3 (**permalink**) 08-21-2007, 09:21 PM

That is correct: One baptism which is Spirit Baptism at "conversion". Evidently they would not baptize with water. They are opposed to tithing and repeat "we're under Grace etc...". I don't know more than these specifics but to address these - where to start?

AV1611 · #4 (**permalink**) 08-22-2007, 06:46 AM

I flirted with ultra-dispensationalism and bought Bullinger's The Companion Bible and works by Cornelius Stam and The Open Bible Trust. The Berean Bible Society also publish this type of stuff.

I still have Stam's Acts Dispensationally Considered on my bookshelf

Is this what they are arguing?

Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: ULTRA-DISPENSATIONALISM EXAMINED IN THE LIGHT OF HOLY SCRIPTURE by H.A. IRONSIDE, Litt.D. may help although it is comeing from a dispensational position

You may wish to talk to Jason (JM on Puritan Board) because we went through this phase at a similar time.

D. Paul · #5 (**permalink**) 08-22-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

I flirted with ultra-dispensationalism and bought Bullinger's The Companion Bible and works by Cornelius Stam and The Open Bible Trust. The Berean Bible Society also publish this type of stuff.

I still have Stam's Acts Dispensationally Considered on my bookshelf

Is this what they are arguing?

Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: ULTRA-DISPENSATIONALISM EXAMINED IN THE LIGHT OF HOLY SCRIPTURE by H.A. IRONSIDE, Litt.D. may help although it is comeing from a dispensational position

You may wish to talk to Jason (JM on Puritan Board) because we went through this phase at a similar time.

In regards to baptism, this hits close to target as I understand them saying. I have not yet "interviewed" my sister-in-law on the specifics.

Now then, what are the dangers of them holding to this position?

raderag · #6 (**permalink**) 08-22-2007, 05:37 PM

I would guess they are not a member of a Church, or at least not a Church that agrees with this?

CalvinandHodges · #7 (**permalink**) 08-22-2007, 06:06 PM

Hi:

You might want to start here:

http://www.ichthys.com/Default.htm

Here is the specific teaching:

http://www.ichthys.com/mail-water%20baptism.htm

Hope it helps,

-CH

D. Paul · #8 (**permalink**) 08-22-2007, 10:18 PM

Ichthys???

I used to read this material and carried on a couple email convo's with Bob Luginbill. I did not necesarily agree with his view on Revelation but had never heard him address baptism. I like his insights on many topics but I guarantee my relatives have not been using him as a source.

CalvinandHodges · #9 (**permalink**) 08-23-2007, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Paul

Ichthys???

I used to read this material and carried on a couple email convo's with Bob Luginbill. I did not necesarily agree with his view on Revelation but had never heard him address baptism. I like his insights on many topics but I guarantee my relatives have not been using him as a source.

Well, then, why don't you just ask your relatives?

D. Paul · #10 (**permalink**) 08-23-2007, 07:26 AM

[/quote]

Well, then, why don't you just ask your relatives?[/quote]

We plan on being with them this coming weekend so hopefully some things will come up. I would just like to be a little better prepared so I 'm not spouting off on something that is not relevant.

AV1611 · #11 (**permalink**) 08-23-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Paul

Now then, what are the dangers of them holding to this position?

Dangers in what sense?

D. Paul · #12 (**permalink**) 08-23-2007, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Paul

Now then, what are the dangers of them holding to this position?

Dangers in what sense?

If they explain to me that they indeed do not "believe in" water baptism, how will this practice affect another belief? No theological point stands alone. Or, to state it conversely, where would this specific point fall within the larger framework (no point standing alone)?

Is it not the view of the antinomian that we in this NT age are "under grace not under law"? My relatives have stated this numerous times.

And then there is their avoidance of the tithe. Although they do not withhold giving, they dislike "tithe" at least as they understand it to be a 10% requirement.

Then they get into this whole weirded-out dispensational thing of the Red Hereford,, the building of the new Temple on the Dome of the Rock, the re-establishment of the sacrificial system etc etc.

My issue all along has been that they have become wrapped up in something and I can't quite put my finger on it. Obviously it is hyper-dispy yet because they attend no local church and get this from Internet Church, who knows where it comes from. Is this clear now?

P.S. One video they showed us was from Triangle Church but it was for one "study" only.

AV1611 · #13 (**permalink**) 08-24-2007, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Paul

If they explain to me that they indeed do not "believe in" water baptism, how will this practice affect another belief? No theological point stands alone. Or, to state it conversely, where would this specific point fall within the larger framework (no point standing alone)?

Water baptism is a means of grace and so one danger is that they would be refusing to use a means of grace which God has provided. It is tantamout to someone saying, well I am a Christian but I do not pray, read my bible, &c. Not only that it is a denial of a command of God. God has commanded that believers (and their seed) are to be baptised with water. They then refuse to do this. It is out right disobedience.

I would point out that a number of these types of dispensationalists do not celebrate the Lord's supper! Their text? "When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper" (1 Corinthians 11:20)!!

They also teach two ways of salvation. Under the OT it was faith+works and now under grace it is faith alone. Hence they throw out James from the NT Canon. At the extreme end they will also throw out any book written by anyone other than Paul and the even more extreme ones will only use his prison epistles!

The best way to counter it is to attack it at its root. The notion of an Israel-Church distinction. Charles Ryrie has a good refutation in his Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism

Amazon (Thumbnails)

but it is still dispensational.

This is also good: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/baker12.htm

FYI: http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/ultradis.htm

D. Paul · #14 (**permalink**) 08-25-2007, 12:28 AM

Thanks AV. Great link to the Baker 12. I recognize that it will take many, many months of conversations to draw them to the proper conclusions. I need to pray that I'm up for it and well schooled myself.

AV1611 · #15 (**permalink**) 08-25-2007, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Paul

Thanks AV. Great link to the Baker 12. I recognize that it will take many, many months of conversations to draw them to the proper conclusions. I need to pray that I'm up for it and well schooled myself.

I would suggest that you let them explain what they believe and what Scriptures they use. Try to figure out where their foundational arguments are. I would assume that it will mostly be located in the Israel-Church distinction but that may not be their case. If it is then the procedure is simplified in that you can show them how OT prophesies regarding Israel are fulfilled in the Church. Use simple Scriptural examples such as those from Acts, Romans, and Galatians. In one sense I just wish I could be there with you but not to worry, I am sure that with preparation and listening you will be able to produce a cogent case.

My advice in brief: Give them a Bible and ask them to explain their view to you. Once they have done so then ask questions for clarification. Find out what they have read on this.

Hope this helps.

BTW: If they are ultras then they will believe in two gospels (at least). Show them how there is only one that unfolds from Genesis 3:15 onwards.