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Ecclesiology discuss Wedding of couple who are living together.... in the Theological Forum forums; I've seen two schools of thought on this. One says that there should be a visible repentance of cohabitation before a pastor officiates over the ...

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    loomster2000 is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
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    Wedding of couple who are living together....

    I've seen two schools of thought on this. One says that there should be a visible repentance of cohabitation before a pastor officiates over the marriage ceremony. Others maintain that it would be unlawful to forbid marriage from the couple, since doing so is not instructed explicitly in Scripture nor in the Confession.

    I'd like to get your input on this, as I have an unsaved couple requesting that I officiate at their wedding. Up until now, for couples in this circumstance, my wedding policy has asked for a time of evidential repentance of the sin of cohabitation. However, I want to rethink this and make sure that I am not exceeding Scripture and Confession.

    Thanks!
    Van L. Loomis, Jr.
    Pastor, Redeeming Grace Baptist Church (ARBCA)
    Mathews, VA

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    PuritanCovenanter's Avatar
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    Why do they want to get married by a minister of the Gospel at all? That is what is confusing to me.

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    TimV's Avatar
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    The penalty under God's law for sex between two people who aren't married or engaged is a fine paid to the woman's dad or to get married. So, you don't have any choice in the matter. If they want to get married you are in violation of God's holy law by hindering it.
    Tim Vaughan
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    I'm confused. If you marry them, they won't be living in sin any more (at least not that sin). Why would you want to forbid them?
    Jonathan
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    Edward's Avatar
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    Putting aside, for a moment, why they would want a pastor to perform the ceremony, shouldn't the answer be different for this non-Christian couple than it would be for Christians living in sin? After all, cohabitation is among the least of their problems.
    Edward
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    seajayrice's Avatar
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    What good would come from your refusal to marry them? Is not the desire to wed a demonstration of repentance?
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    Skyler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seajayrice View Post
    Is not the desire to wed a demonstration of repentance?
    I doubt it, honestly.
    Jonathan
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    Andres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seajayrice View Post
    What good would come from your refusal to marry them? Is not the desire to wed a demonstration of repentance?
    I obviously can't pretend to know Pastor Loomis' reasoning, but for myself, I would be hesitant to marry two unbelievers as well. My reason would be because unbelievers would have no concept of what marriage symbolizes, exhibits, etc. Also, perhaps I am not giving much credit here, but I am going to assume that unless this couple comes to Christ later in their marriage, it's most likely going to end in divorce. I agree with some of the others and I am curious as to why this heathen couple is interested in getting married by a minister in the first place. Why don't they just go to the JP?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    I would be hesitant to marry two unbelievers as well. My reason would be because unbelievers would have no concept of what marriage symbolizes, exhibits, etc.
    While your points have merit, the cohabitation that keys the question is not relevant to your analysis. These points would apply to any non-believers, even if their pre-marital conduct was exemplary.
    Edward
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    I would be hesitant to marry two unbelievers as well. My reason would be because unbelievers would have no concept of what marriage symbolizes, exhibits, etc.
    While your points have merit, the cohabitation that keys the question is not relevant to your analysis. These points would apply to any non-believers, even if their pre-marital conduct was exemplary.
    I agree and this is partially my point. I don't really see the relevance of the cohabitation issue when they are unbelievers. I expect unbelievers to shack up together before marriage. But I also expect unbelievers not to desire being married by a minister of the gospel.
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    Jack K's Avatar
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    I take it the OP presumes the couple are professing believers. Cohabitation among professing believers happens with some frequency, either because they are immature or ill-instructed believers or because they were living together first, then got converted. There's a couple in my church who were at best nominal believers a few months ago, but have had an awakening and started attending services and now want to get married.

    What's the pastor to do? Tell the man he first must move out on the woman he's been living with (and in the case in my church, also move out on the kids they 're raising together)? That could be a worse sin. It seems to me they're already married in a sense, and the problem is they haven't made it legal. They should do so as quickly as is feasible, and the pastor should be eager to support this.

    In other cases, the fact that the couple is living together may be a sign of clearly flaunting what they know is God's law. Then you do want to see some repentance first. This is why elders are instructed to carefully tend their flock like a shepherd. People need individual care, and pastoral counsel may vary based on the person.
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    Andres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack K View Post
    I take it the OP presumes the couple are professing believers.
    He says they're an "unsaved couple".

    Quote Originally Posted by loomster2000 View Post
    I'd like to get your input on this, as I have an unsaved couple requesting that I officiate at their wedding.
    Andrew Silva
    RE OPC (currently not serving)
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    North Dallas

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    loomster2000 is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
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    Thanks for all the responses so far. They are thought-provoking. First, some of you mentioned that the desire to marry is a sign of repentance. That may not necessarily be the case. People get married for all sorts of reasons. Therefore, this couple may be desiring marriage without even considering the sin of cohabitation they have been committing.

    The issue I had was this couple who are living in open, unrepentant (as far as I know) sin coming to a church and a pastor for a church/minister wedding ceremony. There has been no acknowledgement of God in their lives, and yet now they desire for the minister and church to facilitate and officiate over their wedding. The issue is not forbidding the marriage (seeing that the state could put them together), the issue is my part as a minister of the gospel in the marriage.
    Van L. Loomis, Jr.
    Pastor, Redeeming Grace Baptist Church (ARBCA)
    Mathews, VA

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    Jack K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    He says they're an "unsaved couple".
    You're right. I missed that. Oh well, I got to chime in on another topic.

    As for a wedding of two non-Christians... isn't it better that the church just not get involved, whether or not they're cohabitating? There's nothing going on in that relationship to make it a Christian wedding. To make the Christian pronouncements typical of a church wedding would be taking God's name in vain, would it not?
    Jack K.
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    Philip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack K View Post
    What's the pastor to do? Tell the man he first must move out on the woman he's been living with (and in the case in my church, also move out on the kids they 're raising together)? That could be a worse sin. It seems to me they're already married in a sense, and the problem is they haven't made it legal.
    Under common law, actually, if you cohabit for long enough, you are legally married (most states have legislated this into legal history, however). Might just be a good cause to support if we want to get rid of cohabitation.
    Philip
    Student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
    Attending Christ the Redeemer Church (Anglican)
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    Theoretical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P. F. Pugh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack K View Post
    What's the pastor to do? Tell the man he first must move out on the woman he's been living with (and in the case in my church, also move out on the kids they 're raising together)? That could be a worse sin. It seems to me they're already married in a sense, and the problem is they haven't made it legal.
    Under common law, actually, if you cohabit for long enough, you are legally married (most states have legislated this into legal history, however). Might just be a good cause to support if we want to get rid of cohabitation.
    Actually that's a common myth, and may have been the case in the past. But relatively few states have common law marriage at all, and even Texas, which has the easiest requirements still has three components: (a) agreeing to be married, (b) holding yourselves out as a married couple, and (c) cohabiting for any length of time (even as little as one day). Most other states with common law marriage have even stricter requirements and none have a "married after X years of cohabitation" provision alone. Agreement to be married and living as a married couple are essential components.

    That said, I would strongly support such a provision in the law for both the moral reasons of encouraging marriage and for the social reason of protecting the weaker party in the cohabitation, along with any children born of the relationship.
    Scott - Dallas, Texas - Faith OPC

    "It is not what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice tell me I ought to do." - Edmund Burke
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    jogri17 is offline. Puritanboard Junior
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    If I were a pastor, I would not do marriages for any body who were not members of my local church... that would solves so many of these issues.
    Joseph P. Grigoletti II
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    Andres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jogri17 View Post
    If I were a pastor, I would not do marriages for any body who were not members of my local church... that would solves so many of these issues.
    Andrew Silva
    RE OPC (currently not serving)
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    Scott1's Avatar
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    The Westminster Confession affirms the doctrine of Scripture to say it is lawful for two believers or two unbelievers to marry.

    Marriage would not, per se, being conditioned upon "repentance."

    It would be the great opportunity and duty of the minister to minster the Word, speak the truth and put the two in the far better position of the God given institution of marriage, rather than that born of idolatry and rebellion, a lifestyle of sexual immorality.
    Scott
    PCA
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    Edward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott1 View Post
    It would be the great opportunity and duty of the minister to minster the Word, speak the truth and put the two in the far better position of the God given institution of marriage, rather than that born of idolatry and rebellion, a lifestyle of sexual immorality.
    Of course, that raises the risk that one makes a profession of faith as a result of pre-marital counseling - then the wedding can't take place. (This problem was pointed out to me by a pastor that I respect, who was willing to conduct off campus ceremonies for non-believers (his church had a policy against non-Christians being married in the facility).)
    Edward
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott1 View Post
    It would be the great opportunity and duty of the minister to minster the Word, speak the truth and put the two in the far better position of the God given institution of marriage, rather than that born of idolatry and rebellion, a lifestyle of sexual immorality.
    Of course, that raises the risk that one makes a profession of faith as a result of pre-marital counseling - then the wedding can't take place. (This problem was pointed out to me by a pastor that I respect, who was willing to conduct off campus ceremonies for non-believers (his church had a policy against non-Christians being married in the facility).)
    Part of the job of premarital counseling by a Christian minister is to try, as best as possible, to determine the spiritual condition of the couple. The minister tells the couples up front of any policies (e.g. will not officiate marriage for a believer to a nonbeliever).

    It's not risk of a "problem" so much as an opportunity to minister God's truth into a very important situation.

    No Minister ought be automatic in officiating marriage for any two people- that's part of what the counseling process is for.
    Scott
    PCA
    North Carolina


    Post Tenebras Lux; "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." - Revelation 21:4

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