Prove that from Scripture. There is no evidence that ministers in the NT wore distinctive dress. I agree that a ministers clothing is a circumstance, but once you begin to argue for distinct ecclesiastical dress, then you have to find Biblical warrant for it.

Some say "it's a good idea", but if it really was a good idea then God would have told us about it in His word.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Well then I fail to see your problem.

The problem only arises when a certain form of dress is seen as distinctly ecclesiastical?

Surely then the RPW does not govern it?

If we are going to say that a certain form of dress is ecclesiastical, then we shall have to find Biblical warrant for it or else we are violating the regulative principle.

I don't think we will agree on this, mate.

Possibly not. I once commented to my old minister about how he had stopped wearing a collar, he said that he had dropped "the Romish collar". I replied that I had no problem with it, but he said "where do you get that in the Bible, from the fact that the priests in the Old Testament wore vestments?". That kept me quiet.

What is interesting is that among many of the PD type churches here in SoCal, the Hawaiian shirt has become 'ecclesiastical garb'! If you go to a mega-church in the OC you can usually pick out the preacher by his Hawaiian shirt. In fact, when I first started preaching in SoCal, I made people mad because I wore a tie! That was not appropriate in their opinion.

I think this is an impossible topic to make dogma because cultures are so different. What if the culture of a community was to wear robes everywhere. Would a 'Genevan gown' still set anyone apart?

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What are you saying? That all FV minister's wear collars, so therefore we should not?

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia

Brother, I respect your opinion on the collar and robe, but I have to draw the line on American Idol. Now you are espousing anti-Americanism and you have crossed the line.

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Bryan Maes (on Facebook)
Trinity Reformed Church (CREC mission)
Edgewood, NM

One must realize that there is no "neutral" clerical clothing. Whether an Hawaiian shirt, slacks and an open collar, suit and tie, or clerical collar, each makes a statement of one's understanding of the ministry. I wear a clerical collar when preaching, along with a "preacher's stole" or Geneva gown. I argue from the principle of general equity from the OT dress for church officers in that OT Church, not that there is a ceremonial aspect to the collar and robe, but that there is a distinguishing point at issue, which is corresponds to the general equity. One earlier referenced "holy garments" in the New Testament--that is not the point at all. It is simply a uniform to distinguish the calling and the office, much like a judicial robe worn by the judge, or the uniform worn by a police officer, doctor, or other professional. The clothes do not make the man holy--far from it. They do however, tell the story of the office.

Aside from this principle, there are, as one would expect, numerous practical applications of wearing distinctive dress. I wear a collar in public when on official Church business, such as visitation, ministering to the sick, at meetings of Church courts, etc. I even took one man to the grocery store one night in a collar, after he had come to the Church looking for money. Refusing to give him money, I visited him in his home, spoke to him and his family about Christ, and offered to take him to the store to buy groceries. I surmised that if he was willing to walk around the store with me, dressed as I was in a collar, he probably was truly in need.

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Rev. Todd Ruddell
Pastor, Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCGA)
Wylie, TX
www.christcovenantreformedpc.org

Our best marks can contribute nothing to our justification, ...that is proper to faith. Faith cannot lodge in the soul alone, and without other graces; yet faith alone justifies before God.--G. Gillespie

Would other minister's in the RPCGA wear the robe and collar? In the PCA some do and some do not, but there is a suspicion by some if you wear the collar.

It is strange to refer to one of your bishops, as the Dark Lord.

I find myself in agreement with your notations in this discussion. You have truly developed for me a proper understanding of clerical dress. Thank You.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church

Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

Daniel,

May I query you on this?

Didn't the fellows who gave us the RPW wear them? They have historically been worn as a sign of special office. Not every Christian holds special office (minister, elder, deacon). The loss of the Genevan gown has not been due to principle (esp. not the RPW) but due to the relentless leveling tide of democratic populism.

I realize the dangers of enlarging the category "circumstance" unduly but we still do distinguish between elements and circumstances and aren't matters such as clothing a circumstance (along with place, time of day, posture etc)?

My concern is not to lose the RPW inadvertently by identifying circumstances with elements.

rsc

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R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Associate Professor of Historical and Systematic Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

Dr Clark

The fellows who gave us the RPW were the writers of Scripture, who did not wear dog collars.

I do believe that a minister's clothing is a circumstance, however, I believe that when an item of clothing becomes identified with a church office or is uniquely used in worship to distinguish a minister, then it violates the RPW. Hope that makes some sense.

As a side issue is it more proper for us to where a Tab or the Anglican collar?

Not at all. I was simply saying that I've seen Presbyterian Ministers wear collars. This was simply in response to the above quote where it was said regarding collars, "never presbyterians." No guilt by association was intended.

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Gage Browning (Layman)
Grace Community Presbyterian Church
PCA Fort Worth, Texas
www.posttenebraslux.squarespace.com

Is it documented that the Divines wore gowns for the purpose of 'magnifying' the office? Or were they going along with the culture? Did they wear wigs for the same reason and does that mean we should also wear wigs?

On robes in public worship: Consider John Henry Lorimer's painting

The Ordination of Elders in a Scottish Kirk, 1891,

found on the dust jacket of the Banner of Truth's edition of James Bannerman's The Church of Christ.

John Henry Lorimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have never worn a robe in worship; but think perhaps I should.

Attached Images

275px-Lorimer,_Ordination.jpg (11.9 KB, 10 views)

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