I am less than a year away from my first Pastorate (knock on wood) and have a question for the Puritan Board Reverand's (and others).

Wondering what the general consensus and arguments pro/con concerning donning a collar as a Teaching Elder are and also how many of you wear a Geneva Gown on a regular basis?

Thanks.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church

Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart

From the perspective of one sitting in the pews, I don't mind if a pastor wears a robe to preach, but I am definitely against the collar. It too quickly makes me think Roman Catholic. No minister around here wears the collar unless he are catholic. In other places I've been, I've seen Lutherans wear them, but never presbyterians.

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

Distinct ecclesiastical garments are a breach of the regulative principle.

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

The second is a better argument than the first, but I thank you for that insight.

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Tim Vaughan, 48 years old, member PCA church but currently attending EV Free church. San Luis Obispo County, California.

Thanks, the second argument explains the rationale behind the first a bit.

I wear a collar when making hospital calls and on other occassions. There are several reasons why I do: 1. It identifes my office and people generally recognize it. Many people will often strike up conversation when they see me, which can turn to spiritual matters. 2. It sets me apart from the "business man" in his suit. 3. It is a reminder to me of what I have been called to do. The collar is the sign of a slave. In slavery times the slave would wear a collar with a chain as a reminder that he belonged to someone. As a minister I am a slave of Jesus Christ and a servant to people.
I also wear a robe or teaching gown to set me apart in worship as a representative of Christ. People are not looking at a man in a business suit or casual attire, but a representative of Christ, who comes to lead them before the presence of God. In worship we move from the common and mundane world to a world that is extraordinary. Calvin wore a teaching gown and some of the puritans would have worn some simple kind of dress. I certainly would not advocate much of the romish garb, but a simple dress for the minister is appropriate. I am a former Roman Catholic and would not reject dress based on the fact that Roman priests wear them. We do many things that Roman Catholics do, but we cannot throw the baby out with the bath water.

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia

If you wear a collar, wear a PRotestant (Anglican) one, not a Catholic one, which is what most high-church Presbyterians normally do.

Frankly, I'm agin' em.

But, I am in favor of the Geneva (teacher's) gown --Read Lloyd-Jones to see why!

HOw interesting that the Puritans obviously didn't think them against the RPW. The authors of the RPW saw no contradiction.

Like the model T --any color as long as it's black.

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Kenneth A. Pierce
Senior Minister
Trinity Presbyterian Church (PCA)
5301 Old Canton Rd.
Jackson, MS 39211
(601)977-0774
www.trinitychurchpca.com

Really? I prefer the phrase "Lord Willing."

Personally I like the idea of the collar and Geneva gown. I understand the Roman Catholics have monopolized the statement the collar gives to day, but I like that it identifies a minister of God in all settings. It was not always a Papist thing, but today the mass impression is certainly Roman.

There are many Presbyterian ministers who wear the Geneva gown. From what I have seen they have all been very plain (the popular Machen Robe is as elaborate as I have seen and that in itself is quite plain).

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--chRis
Psalm 115:1

Christopher Reeder
Husband to Kara, Father to Abigail (7), Caleb (6), Grace (4 1/2), Zoë (2 1/2), Elijah (1) and Baby Girl due 8/6/08

Member: Pilgrim Presbyterian Church (OPC), Raleigh, NC

Having lived in Scotland it is rare to see even a Protestant minister not wearing a collar. Ian Paisley, who is much more fundamentalist has worn a collar, as well as his son, Kyle. I understand your objection based on the regulative principal, but if you carry that argument out, you would not be able to worship in a building that has the astectics of a church building or other things that you may do as a church.

One Scottish denomination actually force their ministers to wear collars, not only in public worship, but every time they are seen out in public.

The issue of church buildings, imo, comes under circumstances of worship, and we worship in a meeting house as it is most convenient. However, in relation to distinct garments for ministers, I think you have to find Biblical warrant for a minister to dress in a distinctive manner. I have yet to see any Scriptural justification for the practice. Moreover, I think one of the church fathers said that gospel ministers were to be distinguished by their doctrines rather than their clothes. Though I do understand the argument that if a minister dresses distinctly then he is more likely to be noticed.

Yes, I do wear the more traditional collar, which separates me from a papist priest, but I see no issue with wearing them. I think it is related to this entire cultural norm of not wanting distinctives. The church in its approach to worship is becoming more like culture, where the minister dresses however he chooses and the people come to worship the living God, dressed like they are going to a sporting event. If you were invitied to visit Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth, there would be a certain way you would dress, and it would not be casual. We should approach the living God in the same way, never casual or alloff.

Especially considering that the office of Deacon Represents Christ as Priest while the Ruling Elder represents Christ in the office of King and the Teaching Elder in the Office of Prophet.

Make it clear: I don't have any Biblical objection, it is more a ministry philosophy one --it must be wholly adiaphoral. The apostles certainly didn't' wear them, nowhere commanded, therefore indifferent.

Having visited Auburn Avenue Presbyterian- I have seen Steve Wilkins and his Assoc Pastor, they both wear collars.

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Gage Browning (Layman)
Grace Community Presbyterian Church
PCA Fort Worth, Texas
www.posttenebraslux.squarespace.com

What about the Reformed paraphernalia: are there prominent pulpits in the New Testament, ornate communion service ware, pews, steeples? The truth is, nothing can be wholly circumstantial, and everything has a function. The function of the robe, according to DMLJ, is to set the minister apart for his function of prophetic work, which is distinct from him as a man.

I want a cool robe.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

My teaching elder wears a Geneva gown.

Is that an ecclesiastical robe? Graduate students normal wear a robe with some kind of sash like that at graduation, so I always assumed that that's what Machen had on, since he was a professor at Princeton and WTS.

I, contra to my Brother Ritchie, would consider distinctive dress of the minister to be a circumstance of worship, and not an element. The Scriptures do not command what a minister should wear, thus should any clothing be forbidden? But, as always, I am open to being told and persuaded differently, the peon that I am when it comes to doctrine and practice.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

It may be; however, while I was a member at Princeton Presbyterian my senior pastor's geneva gown looked exactly like Machens. RC Sproul also has a Machen-esque painted portrait of himself wearing the same robe, but I have never seen him wear it to preach.

Would you be happy if your minister turned up in a Haiwian shirt?

Seriously though, my argument would just be that ministers should not have distinctive dress, but it is only a very small point.

I agree that what a minister wears is only a circumstance, but would be of the opinion that when you have distinct forms of clerical dress then it is no longer a circumstance (hope this makes some sense).