Tithing Churches

KMK · #1 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 12:10 PM

Many churches tithe. Some people that I have talked to just assume that it is common knowledge that a church is Biblically bound to tithe. Where is the basis for the tithing church found in the Bible? Is it based on the law that required the Levites to tithe to the High Priest? If so, that seems more like a requirement that gospel ministers tithe rather than whole churches. Is it to be a good example to the sheep? If so, that might seem like a good idea but where is this requirement taught in the Bible?

Can anyone help me?

Jerusalem Blade · #2 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 08:17 AM

What I understand the Scriptures to teach, Ken, is that we are no longer under the OT law of the tithe. I believe we are to use it as a guidleline for giving, but not a mandate. We are called upon to give generously, and for those who are able, their offerings may well far exceed 10%.

There was a point in our lives here -- my wife and I -- where we were getting only about $220 a month, and were having a hard time. I said to the Lord, I have a lot more than my "treasure" to give, such as my "time" and "talents", and so embarked on serving others with these, rather than the full 10% $. I know some will disagree, but this is how I see it.

At this point, we do give 10%, but not as under a law. If we run out of food money, I would not hestitate to take a little from the offerings envelope we keep.

I am sometimes stunned when poor domestic workers in our church give much more than wealthier Westerners. Though I do not judge the latter, as they may be giving elsewhere that I do not know.

Steve

Coram Deo · #3 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 09:40 AM

Well said.... I too believe that the tithe was done away with....

Remember also that the 10% tithe in the old testament was also part of the government tax since the government and church was together into a theocracy.. Part was given to the temple and the priest and another part of the 10% was given to run the everyday functions of the government....

The New Testament tell us to give generously but that we are not mandated on a certain percentage.. Though 10% would be useful as a guideline but not across the board.. There are people who hurt greatly with money through no fault of their own. then they are made to feel guilty if they are not able to give 10%....

Side Note: Alot of times I feel that the Offering Plate itself is unwise.... It is kinda of a show off as the plate is passed down the aisles and people can see who and what is been giving..... In alot of churches it becomes a Prideful thing.... I believe the old fashion way worked best for the church over the last 1800 years. A Tithe/Alms Box in the back of the church that people can put money into as is laid a upon their hearts without people eyeing them out or it becoming a Prideful (look at the wade of money I threw in) event....

Michael

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerusalem Blade

What I understand the Scriptures to teach, Ken, is that we are no longer under the OT law of the tithe. I believe we are to use it as a guidleline for giving, but not a mandate. We are called upon to give generously, and for those who are able, their offerings may well far exceed 10%.

There was a point in our lives here -- my wife and I -- where we were getting only about $220 a month, and were having a hard time. I said to the Lord, I have a lot more than my "treasure" to give, such as my "time" and "talents", and so embarked on serving others with these, rather than the full 10% $. I know some will disagree, but this is how I see it.

At this point, we do give 10%, but not as under a law. If we run out of food money, I would not hestitate to take a little from the offerings envelope we keep.

I am sometimes stunned when poor domestic workers in our church give much more than wealthier Westerners. Though I do not judge the latter, as they may be giving elsewhere that I do not know.

Steve

BJClark · #4 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Many churches tithe. Some people that I have talked to just assume that it is common knowledge that a church is Biblically bound to tithe. Where is the basis for the tithing church found in the Bible? Is it based on the law that required the Levites to tithe to the High Priest? If so, that seems more like a requirement that gospel ministers tithe rather than whole churches. Is it to be a good example to the sheep? If so, that might seem like a good idea but where is this requirement taught in the Bible?

Can anyone help me?

If we look at Nehemiah all the people were asked to give; not just the Levites; It was a time of rebuilding, and they were asking leaders from every tribe to come and live within the city, even casting lots for those who would go, and the rest made a covenant to financially and physically support those who went to serve and live in the city.

Shouldn't that be our model? To make a covenant to support our pastors and those who are called to serve the Church body full time? So that they can focus on what God has called them to do and not be distracted by the cares of the world and how they will provide for their families?

Even though 'tithing' is an Old Testament teaching and under the 'Old Covenant' do we not still glean from those teachings how God desires us to live and yes, even give of our time and money as God has provided?

The Priniciple was given to God's Covenant People...as Christians are we not still God's covenant people even though the type of covenant has changed? If so, then why wouldn't it still apply to us, as a Covenant People in order to support those who are called to do God's work, and others in need?

If we look at 2 Corinthians 8-9; we see the Macedonian churches giving out of their Love for God and what God has done--even in looking at verse 8 Paul even describes this as showing the sincerity of their love for God.

In 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 talks of giving out of how God has prospered us.

And I have to agree, our giving is tied into our love for God, and speaks concerning our hearts and if we are trusting God to provide for our needs.

God does not need us to give, He wants us to give, not because He needs or even wants our money, but because it shows our hearts and what we are really trusting in...Him to provide or our riches...

God has provided us with the ability to work, should we not give to Him from what He has provided us showing our thankfulness?

Quote:

I am sometimes stunned when poor domestic workers in our church give much more than wealthier Westerners.

Why are you stunned? Look at the widow who gave a mite, compared to the wealthier who didn't give much at all...what did Jesus say about her giving?
She held nothing back and gave trusting God would meet her needs, just as He claims.

Doesn't God also say Give and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together..(Luke 6:38)

And what of Luke 16:11-15?

So while 10% is what the Isrealites made a covenant to give...it was something they could ALL give equally...percentage wise of their earnings to provide for the needs of those called to serve in the city and temple...

10% might be more for some than it is for others...but doesn't God speak to giving as God has given to us? And doesn't God expect more from those He entrusts with more? (Luke 19)

Even looking at Malachi, God seems to be calling them back to Nehemiah when they made the covenant to give 10% for those serving, and they stopped...and appears to be calling them out on their not trusting HIM to provide on keeping His side of the covenant.

But the gist is, the new covenant people never made the same covenant to give only 10%, but have apparently used that as a guiding principle based on what the Isrealites made a covenant to give.

BJClark · #5 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 10:25 AM

thunaer;

Quote:

Side Note: Alot of times I feel that the Offering Plate itself is unwise.... It is kinda of a show off as the plate is passed down the aisles and people can see who and what is been giving..... In alot of churches it becomes a Prideful thing.... I believe the old fashion way worked best for the church over the last 1800 years. A Tithe/Alms Box in the back of the church that people can put money into as is laid a upon their hearts without people eyeing them out or it becoming a Prideful (look at the wade of money I threw in) event....

All churches I have been a member of have used envelopes and people can't see how much others give, because for the most part it is filled with envelopes and not cash or checks.

Contra_Mundum · #6 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 11:11 AM

1. Giving is a biblical principle. You give because it is commanded (it's not optional), because the ministry requires support (God created an interdependent world that demands cooperation and sacrifice), and because the church is worth support. If your church is not worth supporting, you need to find a church that is worth your money.

2. The "tithe" is a representative percentage. Our father Abraham set the example for us in Genesis 14:20, followed by our father Jacob, Gen. 28:22. God is responsible for everything we have, so we mark that by a respectable return acknowledgment.

3. Israel-under-law was given fixed percentages of what to do with their money. Like children with an allowance, they were told "Give 10% to the church." "Set aside 10% to enjoy yourself." Etc. This is training and discipline. Some good exegetes take Abraham's example, together with the Israelite experience, all the way down to Malachi's encouragements, and conclude that tithing as a fundamental percentage of all increase (that last word is important) is God's eternal, moral will. If it is, then of course not to give at least that is NEVER acceptable, no matter how little you make. Anything less is "special pleading" and the amount is still "owed".

My position is closer to what Steve posted above. Not being under law, we are treated like adults, as those who have already been trained by the law. So, to IGNORE what we find in the OT regarding giving, by way of example and precept, is MORONIC. Don't be an idiot. Don't forget your lessons. And, can you outgive God? But, the NT teaching is equally clear. "You are NOT YOUR OWN. You were BOUGHT WITH A PRICE." What could be more clear than that you are a slave? So, every penny is God's, every stitch, every second. So, don't rationalize that giving LESS is fine (so you can "spend it on your lusts"). There is no "NT" percentage, no fixed amount. We are "past quantifying" your debts. 10% is neither a "floor" nor a "starting point." It is simply a fundamentally reasonable act of devotion. So, when God asks for more, you don't even think twice before its been given. "Do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing."

I've given 10% so long now, since childhood, I can't even function properly unless I've donated it. Earlier this year, I had to empty my bank account to pay the hospital bill. Now, I'm in a position to "back tithe". I'm itching to finish this. Just doesn't feel right. My training, NOT MY CONSCIENCE, is pestering me. "God loveth a cheerful giver."

Woo, hoo.

One more thing. It doesn't amount to anything what method a church uses to collect. One way isn't "more spiritual" than another. All are open to "abuse" or "ostentation". What are folks used to doing or seeing? Do it that way, and change only if there is a perceived problem. Your church's problem may not be MY church's problem.

Blueridge Believer · #7 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunaer

Well said.... I too believe that the tithe was done away with....

Remember also that the 10% tithe in the old testament was also part of the government tax since the government and church was together into a theocracy.. Part was given to the temple and the priest and another part of the 10% was given to run the everyday functions of the government....

The New Testament tell us to give generously but that we are not mandated on a certain percentage.. Though 10% would be useful as a guideline but not across the board.. There are people who hurt greatly with money through no fault of their own. then they are made to feel guilty if they are not able to give 10%....

Side Note: Alot of times I feel that the Offering Plate itself is unwise.... It is kinda of a show off as the plate is passed down the aisles and people can see who and what is been giving..... In alot of churches it becomes a Prideful thing.... I believe the old fashion way worked best for the church over the last 1800 years. A Tithe/Alms Box in the back of the church that people can put money into as is laid a upon their hearts without people eyeing them out or it becoming a Prideful (look at the wade of money I threw in) event....

Michael

I agree with your position brother. Our church does not take up an offering during the service. We have an offering box at the rear near the entrance. Anyone who becomes a member of our assembly is given a copy of our covenant (which covers giving) and statment of faith and asked to read and sign before becoming a member.

AV1611 · #8 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 11:24 AM

We should give no less than 10%

KMK · #9 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 11:34 AM

These posts are wonderful! I appreciate the love that all of you have for the good preaching, good worship, good prayer, and the distribution of mercy to the poor according to the will of God that your commitment to giving provides.

I, myself, agree with Bruce, in that it is wise to tithe.

However, I was not asking about tithing individuals but tithing churches. Many churches tithe of the total giving each week. Where is this practice supported in Scripture? To many it seems to be a no brainer and I am not sure why. Many believe it is a duty of the church above and beyond the maintenance of their own pastor. Where does this paradigm come from?

victorbravo · #10 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trevorjohnson

............After all, that other 90% IS NOT ours to do whatever we want to do with it.

True enough. About 60% of that 90% has another claim on it, depending upon your jurisdiction. . . .

But I agree with your general point. And if you are doing really well, the IRS even "lets" you give away up to 50% of your income and deduct it completely.

victorbravo · #11 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

These posts are wonderful! I appreciate the love that all of you have for the good preaching, good worship, good prayer, and the distribution of mercy to the poor according to the will of God that your commitment to giving provides.

I, myself, agree with Bruce, in that it is wise to tithe.

However, I was not asking about tithing individuals but tithing churches. Many churches tithe of the total giving each week. Where is this practice supported in Scripture? To many it seems to be a no brainer and I am not sure why. Many believe it is a duty of the church above and beyond the maintenance of their own pastor. Where does this paradigm come from?

Sorry about missing your point. I don't even know what it means for a church to tithe. To what does it tithe?

I'd expect it to use the funds to pay the costs of ministry and to assist the poor.

KMK · #12 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victorbravo

I don't even know what it means for a church to tithe. To what does it tithe?

I'd expect it to use the funds to pay the costs of ministry and to assist the poor.

That is what I would expect also but amny churches around here give 10% to things like Salvation Army, Red Cross, Missions organizations etc.

Perhaps it is just a Calvary Chapel thing. Their influence is very strong around here.

Davidius · #13 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 12:42 PM

I, also, have never heard of a church tithing.

Contra_Mundum · #14 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 01:43 PM

Churches that belong to denominations are often presented with "askings" by the denomination. For example, the total askings for all the denomiational ministries (missionaries, publications, pensions, administration, etc.) might be "25 per communicant member" or something like that.

So, ordinarily that is part of a particular church's annual budget.

The largest single expense of a small church (like most of ours') is usually the pastor's salary. That happens to be the church's FIRST responsibility (and not just because I'm "interested"). Not organizationally "setting aside" a tenth. Then, the church needs to take care of a place to meet--rent, buy, maintenance, whatever. Great or small, that is the next "circumstance" of worship, the MOST important corporate activity, the church needs to take care of. Only after those matters are covered, and the next portion (a wisdom decision) set aside for the deacons, does the church look outside to give more.

Now, that does not mean that the church does not give outside until it's budget is at least, I dunno, $25,000. No, the only question is not "how much to this and that?" but rather, "what are the priorities, in order?" Then you meet those committments, in order.

Rev. Todd Ruddell · #15 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 02:05 PM

I believe the tithe is binding upon the NT believer, and that, really, it is but a small amount. We ought to give more than 10% in "free will offerings" and in keeping with other opportunities for generosity that arise.

But to say that the tithe is done away with in the NT simply because a command enforcing it is not repeated, IMO is in error. As was noted above, the tithe is a pre-Mosaic ordinance, and carries through the Mosaic, Davidic and post exhilic establishments. Certainly this is not a part of the "types and shadows" of Sinai.

Contra_Mundum · #16 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 02:21 PM

I respect your position, Todd. I once considered myself a legal tither. But how do you get from example to precept? The imperatives commanding the tithes are confined to the law. And when the NT has clear opportunities to affirm a permanent dictate, the apostolic writers say nothing of it. There are several NT passages dealing with giving, and none of them even hint at a fixed floor/minimum or morally-defined percentage.

For any interested in an Old School Presbyterian defense of my non-legal position, read T.E. Peck's article on "The Moral Obligation of the Tithe" in vol. 1 of his works (pp 146-157).

Coram Deo · #17 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 02:34 PM

Though I consider civil law of the old testament binding as much as it consist of moral law I do believe that certain Judical Sundry Laws ceased and passed away with the end of the Theocractic State of the Jewish people and are no longer binding today. The Tithe (Tenth) is one of them.. Just the makeup of the tithe which consisted of a part of the tithe to go to the Levites and the Ecclesiastical Sanhedrin which was the government of the church, and part of the tithe went to the Secular Sanhedrin which was the government of the people. The Theocractic State has ceased and so to does the tithe which was part of laws of that theocracy.

The New Testament only talks about giving without a minimal limit..... But to give with the Heart.

Michael

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Todd Ruddell

I believe the tithe is binding upon the NT believer, and that, really, it is but a small amount. We ought to give more than 10% in "free will offerings" and in keeping with other opportunities for generosity that arise.

But to say that the tithe is done away with in the NT simply because a command enforcing it is not repeated, IMO is in error. As was noted above, the tithe is a pre-Mosaic ordinance, and carries through the Mosaic, Davidic and post exhilic establishments. Certainly this is not a part of the "types and shadows" of Sinai.

py3ak · #18 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 03:09 PM

Ken,

For what it's worth, I've never heard of a church tithing, except in the sense of a required contribution to denominational expenses, and cannot see any rationale for it. The monies the church receives are of course spent on ministry-related expenses (pastor, building, missionaries, etc.) and mercy ministries. It seems to me that perhaps giving to Salvation Army, etc., is a convenient way to let someone else do your mercy ministry?

And on the general question: if the NT teaches proportional giving (give as the Lord prospers), from where we would identify that proportion if not from the OT example of the tithe?

KMK · #19 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 04:10 PM

I agree, Ruben. BTW, how's your ministry going? Since no one else has heard of it before I am going to assume that it is a Chuck Smith or Rick Warren thing since they have so much influence in this part of the world.

I like the idea of a church doing its own mercy ministry as well.

KMK · #20 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 04:18 PM

Since this thread it all but hijacked, I will throw my

in...

What's the difference between a law and a moral obligation? When you get down to the nitty gritty, pastors need to make a full time living. 1 Cor 9 says that there is a continuity between the way His ministers in the OT made a living and His ministers in the NT make a living. In the OT you had 12 tribes, one of which was the tribe of Levi. Therefore yo had basically 11 families tithing and offering to support 1 Levite family and that Levite family would make around 110% of the average of those other 11 families. The Levite would not make more than most or less than most, but just average.

If applied to the NT, you have the same thing and 11 families makes for a good church. Once you add that 12th and 13th family you have mercy for the poor as well!

In my mind, to say that people should not tithe is to say that you have a better system than God's perfect economy that He set up in the OT! If that's true, then more power to you. You will have to share it with us!

py3ak · #21 (**permalink**) 06-25-2007, 04:57 PM

Ken, I sent you an e-mail earlier today. That should bring you up to speed on us. For a moment I thought you were saying that I was influenced by Rick Warren! Then I read the post again.