Tithes and Offerings

Romans922 · #1 (**permalink**) 01-31-2008, 08:55 AM

I'm thinking over this RPW thing with the offering, the PCA BCO says there must be an element of Tithes/offering in the liturgy.

I'm wondering how it can be considered an element of worship? I don't think you can consider it a circumstance since it is in the liturgy not how you do the liturgy.

Without practical qualifications like, your church won't receive any money: How is Tithes/Offerings an element of worship, where is it commanded in the context of corporate worship, etc.?

jaybird0827 · #2 (**permalink**) 01-31-2008, 10:30 AM

You are certainly in good company with the Scottish divines.

It isn't part of our liturgy. There is a collection box; everybody knows where it is, and there has never, to my knowledge, been an issue as far as giving in any of our congregations.

KMK · #3 (**permalink**) 01-31-2008, 06:34 PM

I think most on PB would say that tithes and offerings are a form of private worship and therefore do not fall under guidlines for corporate worship.

I am still wrestling with the idea of it being 'private' worship. If it is 'private', it sure is done 'publically'.

Poimen · #4 (**permalink**) 01-31-2008, 06:40 PM

Most (if not all) Dutch Reformed churches I have attended have an offering in the service.

Why? This is evident from 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. In context we are told to abound “in the work of the Lord, knowing that [our] labor is not in vain in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 15:58) This is why we gather to give offerings on “the first day of every week” (16:2), which is a token of our thankfulness to God in his delivery to us from death and sin (1 Corinthians 15:56-57). Note that this is similar to the Old Testament practice of bringing animals and birds to be sacrificed on the Sabbath. (Numbers 28:9-10) Offerings in the Old Testament were a sign of forgiveness as well as thankfulness, as they are in the New Testament.

Romans922 · #5 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 09:08 PM

Anyone else?

Contra_Mundum · #6 (**permalink**) 02-01-2008, 09:43 PM

The Temple had a "box" (where the widow threw in her two mites), and some people still managed to make a "show" of their giving, Lk. 21:1-2. Doesn't matter how its done, it can always be abused.

Personally, I've never been in a church where there was no "passing plate" as part of the liturgy. I've never experienced or seen any awkward moments. People seem used to it, seem to expect it. I've never gotten the sense of a mercenary spirit about it, except when I've seen these mega-church takes that seem so blatantly "pay for entertainment" or worse, "sowing a seed," giving to GET.

And there does appear to be some sort of precedent for simply giving to the Lord as part of worship in the thank and peace offerings of the OT (beside the giving of monies both from the heart, and by dictate which is past). And see 1 Chron 16:29; Ps. 96:8.

I agree with Daniel, that 1 Cor 16:2 at the very least puts 'giving' into the context of attending first-day worship, even if one is not disposed to see it as belonging to the liturgy of worship.

Grymir · #7 (**permalink**) 02-02-2008, 01:05 AM

Yes, even my PCusa has an offering, i wish we had liturgy. we even get the malachi treatment error. "Test me now, and i'll open heaven and give you millions" gheeze. I kinda liked the Calvary Chapel treatment with a box in lobby. they had no shortage of $$

JBaldwin · #8 (**permalink**) 02-02-2008, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

The Temple had a "box" (where the widow threw in her two mites), and some people still managed to make a "show" of their giving, Lk. 21:1-2. Doesn't matter how its done, it can always be abused.

Personally, I've never been in a church where there was no "passing plate" as part of the liturgy. I've never experienced or seen any awkward moments. People seem used to it, seem to expect it. I've never gotten the sense of a mercenary spirit about it, except when I've seen these mega-church takes that seem so blatantly "pay for entertainment" or worse, "sowing a seed," giving to GET.

And there does appear to be some sort of precedent for simply giving to the Lord as part of worship in the thank and peace offerings of the OT (beside the giving of monies both from the heart, and by dictate which is past). And see 1 Chron 16:29; Ps. 96:8.

I agree with Daniel, that 1 Cor 16:2 at the very least puts 'giving' into the context of attending first-day worship, even if one is not disposed to see it as belonging to the liturgy of worship.

It was a happy moment for me when our pastor and elders announced that they were not going to pass a plate in our church. There are boxes in the back. Because we are PCA church, an announcement is made after the worship stating that a part of our worship is giving tithes and offerings to God and the boxes are in the back.

I am officially getting on my soap box here, but I really have a problem with offertories and big shows of giving. Jesus said that when we give our right hand is not to know what our left is doing. In other words, we should be free and hilarious givers, and it is not necessary for the entire world to see what and when we give. And since we are on the subject, I also have a problem with the church keeping track of how much people give and claiming it on taxes. It seems that if we get a tax deduction for what we give, we are been calculated about our giving. I'll get down from my soap box now.

SRoper · #9 (**permalink**) 02-03-2008, 02:33 PM

R. Scott Clark had a recent post on this. I'm not convinced by his argument, but I thought I'd point it out.

I find it strange that the WCF uses 1 Cor. 16:2 to justify the first day of the week as the Sabbath yet doesn't recognize the offering as an element of worship.

ServantofGod · #10 (**permalink**) 02-26-2008, 03:48 PM

The OPC(the ones I have attended anyway) consider it an act of worship. "Let us worship the Lord with our tithes and offerings."

I wonder if we could make it a sacrament...