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Old 01-31-2008, 09:03 AM
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RPW - Corporate worship commands

RPW - Where do we get these commands (in the context of corporate worship for the following):

1.Meeting on the Lord’s Day

2.Reading of the Word of God

3.Hearing of the Word of God

4.Preaching from the Bible

5.Administration of the Sacraments

6.Prayer to God

7.The Singing of Psalms
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Old 01-31-2008, 09:39 AM
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As for number 1, God sets the time and place for meeting with him. Jesus (God) began meeting with his gathered disciples starting on the day of his resurrection, and then the following week, the first day also, and then his ascension day, and then we find the disciples continuing this pattern, first as they are meeting on Pentecost, then Acts 20:7, and 1 Cor. 16:2, then Rev 1:10.

Maybe someone else can pick up...
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:34 AM
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I would encourage you to get a copy of "Worship in the Presence of God" edited by Frank Smith and David Lachman. In this work, various authors contribute very good articles dealing with each element of worship and how the RPW relates to each one... The book was out of print for a while, but it's back in print once again.

The Presbyterian Bookshop : Worship in the Presence of God
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:05 PM
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Pastor,

This seems like a great book, I just read a great review of it.... I am curious though, Does it cover the Dialogical Principle of Worship as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bygracealone View Post
I would encourage you to get a copy of "Worship in the Presence of God" edited by Frank Smith and David Lachman. In this work, various authors contribute very good articles dealing with each element of worship and how the RPW relates to each one... The book was out of print for a while, but it's back in print once again.

The Presbyterian Bookshop : Worship in the Presence of God
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:19 PM
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Brian Schwertley has a table showing the scriptural warrant for these ordinances of worship. It's from his essay on musical instruments in the worship of God:

Quote:
Preaching from the Bible - Matt. 26:13; Mk. 16:15; Acts 9:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; Acts 20:8, 17:10; 1 Cor. 14:28

Reading the word of God - Mk. 4:16-20; Acts 13:15; 1 Tim. 4:13; Rev. 1:13; Acts 1:13, 16:13; 1 Cor. 11:20

Meeting on the Lord’s day - Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2; Rev. 1:10; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 11:18

Administration of sacraments - Matt. 28:19; Matt. 26:26-29; 1 Cor. 11:24-25

Hearing the word of God - Lk. 2:46; Acts 8:31; Rom. 10:41; Jas. 1:22; Lk. 4:20; Acts 20:9

Prayer to God - Matt. 6:9; 1 Thess. 5:17; Heb. 13:18; Phil. 4:6; Jas. 1:5; 1 Cor. 11:13-15; Deut. 22:5

The singing of Psalms - 1 Chron. 16:9; Ps. 95:1-2; Ps. 105:2; 1 Cor. 14:26; Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16
You can also refer to Westminster Confession of Faith chap. 21 which outlines these ordinances of worship and their scriptural warrant.

Besides Worship in the Presence of God, an excellent book, I would recommend Archibald Hall's Gospel Worship. It goes through all of the ordinances of worship, explaining what scriptural basis they have, what their purpose is, and how they are to be rightly practiced to God's glory.
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922 View Post
RPW - Where do we get these commands (in the context of corporate worship for the following):

1.Meeting on the Lord’s Day

2.Reading of the Word of God

3.Hearing of the Word of God

4.Preaching from the Bible

5.Administration of the Sacraments

6.Prayer to God

7.The Singing of Psalms
The WCF:

21:3 Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship (Phi_4:6), is by God required of all men(Psa_65:2): and that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son (Joh_14:13, Joh_14:14; 1Pe_2:5), by the help of His Spirit (Rom_8:26), according to His will (1Jo_5:14), with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love, and perseverance (Gen_18:27; Psa_47:7; Ecc_5:1, Ecc_5:2; Mat_6:12, Mat_6:14, Mat_6:15; Mar_11:24; Eph_6:18; Col_4:2; Heb_12:28; Jam_1:6, Jam_1:7; Jam_5:16); and, if vocal, in a known tongue (1Co_14:14).

21:5 The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear (Act_15:21; Rev 1;3); the sound preaching (2Ti_4:2) and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith, and reverence (Isa_66:2; Mat_13:19; Act_10:33; Heb_4:2; Jam_1:22); singing of psalms with grace in the heart (Eph_5:19; Col_3:16; Jam_5:13); as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God (Mat_28:19; Act_2:42; 1Co_11:23-29): besides religious oaths (Deu_6:13 with Neh_10:29), vows Isa_19:21 with Eccl 5;4, 5), solemn fastings (Est_4:16; Joe_2:12; Mat_9:15; 1Co_7:5), and thanksgivings, upon several occasions (Est_9:22; Psalm 107:1-43), which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in a holy and religious manner (Heb_12:28).
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Old 01-31-2008, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunaer View Post
Pastor,

This seems like a great book, I just read a great review of it.... I am curious though, Does it cover the Dialogical Principle of Worship as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bygracealone View Post
I would encourage you to get a copy of "Worship in the Presence of God" edited by Frank Smith and David Lachman. In this work, various authors contribute very good articles dealing with each element of worship and how the RPW relates to each one... The book was out of print for a while, but it's back in print once again.

The Presbyterian Bookshop : Worship in the Presence of God
Hi Michael,

Yes, the book certainly deals with the dialogical principle of worship. One article is entitled: "The Dialogical Nature of Worship in the Old Testament." This article was written by a retired pastor and former professor of our seminary (RPTS)--Dr. Clark Copeland.

Well, as I think about it, perhaps I should include the whole table of contents:

Chapter 1: What is Worship? by Frank Smith
Chapter 2: The Fear of the Lord in Worship by Herman Hanko
Chapter 3: The Dialogical Nature of Worship in the Old Testament by Dr. Clark Copeland
Chapter 4: "Hear Ye Him": Worship in the New Testament by R. Sherman Isbell
Chapter 5: Second Commandment: The Principle that God is to be Worshipped Only in Ways Prescribed in Holy Scripture and that the Holy Scripture Prescribes the Whole Content of Worship, Taught by Scripture Itself by William Young (doesn't that sound like the title of a Puritan work? )
Chapter 6: Christian Liberty and Worship by David C. Lachman
Chapter 7: Family Worship: Biblical, Reformed, and Viable for Today by Douglas F. Kelly
Chapter 8: An Introduction to the Elements of Worship by Frank J. Smith
Chapter 9: The Reading of the Scriptures by Louis F. DeBoer
Chapter 10: Worship and Preaching by Henry Krabbendam
Chapter 11: Song in Public Worship by John Murray (OPC Minority Report)
Chapter 12: The Singing of Praise by Frank J. Smith
Chapter 13: Prayer Regulated by God's Word by Michael Schneider, III
Chapter 14: The Administration of the Sacraments by Kerry W. "Pete" Hurst
Chapter 15: The Occasional Elements of Worship by J. Cameron Fraser
Chapter 16: History and Worship by Frank J. Smith
Chapter 17: The Reformed Creeds and the Reconstruction of Christian Worship by C. Gregg Singer
Chapter 18: John Knox and the Reformation of Worship in the Scottish Reformation by Kevin Reed
Chapter 19: "The Acceptable Way of Worshipping the True God": Recent Writings on Worship of Particular Interest to Reformed Christians by Thomas G. Reid, Jr.

Appendices:
About the Authors
The OPC Majority Report on the Content of Worship Song

In His Grace,

Steve
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Old 01-31-2008, 01:32 PM
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My Mouth is Salivating.... As the Review I read of the book said, ""Sell your shirt to buy this book!" Such a book is this fine collection of essays on the nature, elements and historic views and practice of worship, a symposium written by sixteen Reformed teaching and ruling elders who share the common conviction that worship is the highest activity that man can render to God and that all worship should be God-centered. "

Just by the Table of Content, I already agree with this sediment......




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bygracealone View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thunaer View Post
Pastor,

This seems like a great book, I just read a great review of it.... I am curious though, Does it cover the Dialogical Principle of Worship as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bygracealone View Post
I would encourage you to get a copy of "Worship in the Presence of God" edited by Frank Smith and David Lachman. In this work, various authors contribute very good articles dealing with each element of worship and how the RPW relates to each one... The book was out of print for a while, but it's back in print once again.

The Presbyterian Bookshop : Worship in the Presence of God
Hi Michael,

Yes, the book certainly deals with the dialogical principle of worship. One article is entitled: "The Dialogical Nature of Worship in the Old Testament." This article was written by a retired pastor and former professor of our seminary (RPTS)--Dr. Clark Copeland.

Well, as I think about it, perhaps I should include the whole table of contents:

Chapter 1: What is Worship? by Frank Smith
Chapter 2: The Fear of the Lord in Worship by Herman Hanko
Chapter 3: The Dialogical Nature of Worship in the Old Testament by Dr. Clark Copeland
Chapter 4: "Hear Ye Him": Worship in the New Testament by R. Sherman Isbell
Chapter 5: Second Commandment: The Principle that God is to be Worshipped Only in Ways Prescribed in Holy Scripture and that the Holy Scripture Prescribes the Whole Content of Worship, Taught by Scripture Itself by William Young (doesn't that sound like the title of a Puritan work? )
Chapter 6: Christian Liberty and Worship by David C. Lachman
Chapter 7: Family Worship: Biblical, Reformed, and Viable for Today by Douglas F. Kelly
Chapter 8: An Introduction to the Elements of Worship by Frank J. Smith
Chapter 9: The Reading of the Scriptures by Louis F. DeBoer
Chapter 10: Worship and Preaching by Henry Krabbendam
Chapter 11: Song in Public Worship by John Murray (OPC Minority Report)
Chapter 12: The Singing of Praise by Frank J. Smith
Chapter 13: Prayer Regulated by God's Word by Michael Schneider, III
Chapter 14: The Administration of the Sacraments by Kerry W. "Pete" Hurst
Chapter 15: The Occasional Elements of Worship by J. Cameron Fraser
Chapter 16: History and Worship by Frank J. Smith
Chapter 17: The Reformed Creeds and the Reconstruction of Christian Worship by C. Gregg Singer
Chapter 18: John Knox and the Reformation of Worship in the Scottish Reformation by Kevin Reed
Chapter 19: "The Acceptable Way of Worshipping the True God": Recent Writings on Worship of Particular Interest to Reformed Christians by Thomas G. Reid, Jr.

Appendices:
About the Authors
The OPC Majority Report on the Content of Worship Song

In His Grace,

Steve
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Old 01-31-2008, 01:52 PM
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Two significant things happened in the early 1990s as far as helping to stir up more interest in the RPW, the 1990 Psalmody Conference, and the 1992 book, Worship in the Presence of God.
From "The Regulative Principle of Worship: Sixty Years in Reformed Literature, Part One (1946-1999)," The Confessional Presbyterian (2005) 137; 164. Overview: 1990–1999
Quote:
In 1992, more than a decade’s worth of labor came to fruition with the publication of Worship in the Presence of God: A collection of essays on the nature, elements, and historic views and practice of worship.129 Edited by a Presbyterian Church in America pastor (Frank J. Smith) and ruling elder (David C. Lachman), the volume was designed as the first treatment in the twentieth century of all of the elements of worship from the traditional Presbyterian and Reformed perspective.
Quote:
This decade began with an important marker for interest in the regulative principle of worship with the holding of the 1990 Psalmody Conference. In the 1990s, discussion of the Scriptural rule of worship became more fashionable, indeed unavoidable within mainstream conservative Presbyterianism, with a resulting growth in the amount of literature, both pro and con. The publication of Worship in the Presence of God signaled a significant increase of interest in the doctrine, a fact borne out as well by the severity of criticism it received from those opposed to the principle.
...
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:16 AM
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Dear Bruce,

Sorry to be a pain in responding to you on this point, but as one who adheres to Calvin and Ursinus on the Sabbath (i.e. that it exists in the new covenant but doesn't have to be on Sunday), I struggle to find your argument actually commanding believers to public worship on Sundays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum View Post
As for number 1, God sets the time and place for meeting with him. Jesus (God) began meeting with his gathered disciples starting on the day of his resurrection, and then the following week, the first day also, and then his ascension day,
Two points:

[1] Jesus certainly appeared to his disciples on Sundays, however was it always for corporate worship? It's not at all clear.

[2] Just because this was done by Jesus, how do we know if it becomes an ought for us? It's the idea that something descriptive is not necessarily prescriptive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum View Post
and then we find the disciples continuing this pattern, first as they are meeting on Pentecost,
But Pentecost was a Jewish rite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum View Post
then Acts 20:7
[1] Why is Acts 20:7 prescriptive? In Acts 19:9-10 Paul met publicly daily with his disciples.

[2] If slaves were a part of this Sunday gathering (as highly likely) they most likely would've have been able to take all of Sunday off. Hence, this meeting appears to begin at the end of the day (that's why Paul speaks into the night).

Thus, it's difficult to see this verse as a command for all believers. If it is a command why stop at meeting on Sunday, what not say we all have to meet at the close of the day as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum View Post
and 1 Cor. 16:2,
This is a command to the Corinthians about taking up a collection. Can we prove that it's also about public worship? It might be. But ultimately we can't prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum View Post
then Rev 1:10.
This says nothing about corporate worship; only that John was in the Spirit himself. Moreover, "Lord's Day" is most likely a Christian reference to the day Sunday, the first day in the week. That it also entailed a Sabbath we just can't prove. We must be careful not to read later ideas back into the phrase "Lord's Day".

Every blessing Bruce.
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Old 02-01-2008, 10:24 AM
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JO,
Is it your position that the meeting is our idea, that we call it? My first statement is derived from the RPW, that it is God who establishes order in worship. Is the Sabbath a "positive" AND "moral" AND "perpetual" commandment, as the Standards teach? If Calvin thought otherwise, OK. I consider him a master in Israel, but my Standards are a straightline development of his theology for the next 100 years. They are my government, and I happen to agree with them.

If God does set those things, then the moral requirement remains (one day in 7), and the positive requirement remains as the 7th day, unless he changes it to some other day--which, if the Puritan hermeneutic is correct, he did change to the first day. We argue that the evidence of this change is the explicit notations of the worshipful gatherings of the church in the NT.

When you say "it isn't clear to me" that the gatherings of the disciples were for worship, I concede 1) at first (certainly on resurrection day) they do not seem so; but 2) the appearances begin to follow a pattern. GOD keeps coming to meet with his disciples on the first day of the week. OK, was he just coming to them when THEY called a meeting? Acts tells us the believers were meeting CONSTANTLY, in essence one looooong worshipful gathering. But GOD keeps showing up one day in seven, which happens to be on the first day. So, if you were there, 7 days a week, and GOD kept showing up in the first day, which day would you start expecting him? Which day would you start thinking was the day HE was designating for his meeting? I know what I would be thinking.

Start with the RPW. If we find a description, we interpret it. Is the apostolic pattern an approved example? If so, it has the force of prescription when combined with the RPW.

As for Pentecost being Jewish, my main reason for including it is: it shows God meeting with his people, indeed doing something unique for his gathered people, again on the first day.

Acts 20:7 specifically designates a "first day meeting." I understand the disciples often met daily. Great. Perhaps we can meet more than we do as Christians too. But this marks the 1/2 dozenth time that the "first day" meeting is designated. Why don't we read about that "special meeting" on Lunes? Or some other day? Why even mention that it was the "first day" of the week at all? Much less repeatedly mentioning it? You are welcome to rubbish these references as so much coincidence, but I'm seeing something more there.

What is your reason for saying that slaves got Sunday off? Or did you mean would NOT have taken it all off? I agree, I think the saints would have set their meeting time (a circumstance) for when most people--including slaves--could be there, eventide. But unless you are saying its just coincidence that this was the first day... I don't see how it impacts the argument at all. And once again, this is a cumulative argument, not a prooftexting argument. What does the NT say about God's people gathering? What details are repeatedly emphasized?

As for 1 Cor 16:2, again you point to all these multiple designations of first-day religious observance, to the exclusion of other such designations, and wave the hand. OK. I can't make you see a pattern--all I can do is assert "its there" and wait until (if) you see it too.

And Rev. 1:10, maybe Jesus didn't tell us which day was his. I look at all the evidence, and I think he did. Its the day God designated to meet with his people, the day he started coming to them repeatedly, and which they in short order began to anticipate him, and to focus not on his coming to their gathering, but their attending on his appearance.

Blessings, as well.
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:20 AM
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Great points Bruce.

I think it helps to remember what the confession teaches concerning the RPW; that it's not just those things that are positively expressed that are binding, but also those things that may be deduced by good and necessary consequence; such things are equally binding.

WCF 1:6 The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnOwen007 View Post
Dear Bruce,

Sorry to be a pain in responding to you on this point, but as one who adheres to Calvin and Ursinus on the Sabbath (i.e. that it exists in the new covenant but doesn't have to be on Sunday), I struggle to find your argument actually commanding believers to public worship on Sundays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum View Post
As for number 1, God sets the time and place for meeting with him. Jesus (God) began meeting with his gathered disciples starting on the day of his resurrection, and then the following week, the first day also, and then his ascension day,
Two points:

[1] Jesus certainly appeared to his disciples on Sundays, however was it always for corporate worship? It's not at all clear.

[2] Just because this was done by Jesus, how do we know if it becomes an ought for us? It's the idea that something descriptive is not necessarily prescriptive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum View Post
and then we find the disciples continuing this pattern, first as they are meeting on Pentecost,
But Pentecost was a Jewish rite?



[1] Why is Acts 20:7 prescriptive? In Acts 19:9-10 Paul met publicly daily with his disciples.

[2] If slaves were a part of this Sunday gathering (as highly likely) they most likely would've have been able to take all of Sunday off. Hence, this meeting appears to begin at the end of the day (that's why Paul speaks into the night).

Thus, it's difficult to see this verse as a command for all believers. If it is a command why stop at meeting on Sunday, what not say we all have to meet at the close of the day as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum View Post
and 1 Cor. 16:2,
This is a command to the Corinthians about taking up a collection. Can we prove that it's also about public worship? It might be. But ultimately we can't prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum View Post
then Rev 1:10.
This says nothing about corporate worship; only that John was in the Spirit himself. Moreover, "Lord's Day" is most likely a Christian reference to the day Sunday, the first day in the week. That it also entailed a Sabbath we just can't prove. We must be careful not to read later ideas back into the phrase "Lord's Day".

Every blessing Bruce.


Brother Marty:

Is it not true that there was a tremndous amount of disagreement about Saturday vs Sunday in puritan Europe? I know I recently read an article that revealed this 'hidden' issue. Ill see if I can find it somewhere. I believe John Traske was one. Prematurely, I find Theophilus Brabourne's arguement that there is no convincing evidence that it should have been changed good. Ill have to see where I found it again.
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