Rick Phillips Hits the Nail On the Head: Triperspectivalism and Ecclesiology

Archlute · #1 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 09:21 PM

Read closely the final paragraph in particular.

Tim Keller's Review of Willow Creek: What About Gospel Clarity? - Reformation21 Blog

**KMK** · #2 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Lastly, why is it that every time I encounter tri-perspectivalism, the result is to down-play Reformed distinctives?

Interesting...

**armourbearer** · #3 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Quote:

Lastly, why is it that every time I encounter tri-perspectivalism, the result is to down-play Reformed distinctives?

Interesting...

That is because the situational perspective is a perspective as equally as the normative perspective is a perspective.

ChristianTrader · #4 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Quote:

Lastly, why is it that every time I encounter tri-perspectivalism, the result is to down-play Reformed distinctives?

Interesting...

That is because the situational perspective is a perspective as equally as the normative perspective is a perspective.

So Rev. Winzer, you would have less of a problem with multi-per. if there was a hierarchy with some perspectives higher up than others? For example normative over situational?

CT

**armourbearer** · #5 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianTrader

So Rev. Winzer, you would have less of a problem with multi-per. if there was a hierarchy with some perspectives higher up than others? For example normative over situational?

The perpective would no longer be a norm at the point at which it is subordinated to another perspective, which would destroy the whole concept of multi-perspectivalism. One should obliterate the concept altogether. Obviously contextualisation and situationism is leading us to think more about how circumstances shape the message, but I don't think "perspectivalism" is the answer. We should be looking more at the idea of "universal situations," as when Paul says there is no temptation but what is "common to man." The providential order will help us to see a uniformity across all contexts so that we do not become confused by the diversity in the human situation.

discipulo · #6 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 03:14 AM

I have benefited greatly from several Keller's sermons, but Keller seems to be sitting on the fence on being or not confessional,

Keller’s own article on the same occasion (his visit to Willow Creek) that gave origin to Rick Phillips’ just, timely and rather compassionate critique, Keller says:

I also am humbled that Redeemer is well-regarded in each of these 'streams' of evangelicalism, though we have our feet firmly set in our own Reformed tradition. That is quite unusual, and it makes it possible for us to both teach and learn across the spectrum of church life today.

http://www.rcpc.com/blog/view.jsp?Blog_param=44

It’s not the first time that I look for a clear mention of the Westminster Standards on the Redeemer Site and I don’t find it.

Is Keller becoming a Latitudinarian?

Is Redeemer a truly Confessional Church or it is not?

***Semper Fidelis*** · #7 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianTrader

So Rev. Winzer, you would have less of a problem with multi-per. if there was a hierarchy with some perspectives higher up than others? For example normative over situational?

The perpective would no longer be a norm at the point at which it is subordinated to another perspective, which would destroy the whole concept of multi-perspectivalism. One should obliterate the concept altogether. Obviously contextualisation and situationism is leading us to think more about how circumstances shape the message, but I don't think "perspectivalism" is the answer. We should be looking more at the idea of "universal situations," as when Paul says there is no temptation but what is "common to man." The providential order will help us to see a uniformity across all contexts so that we do not become confused by the diversity in the human situation.

Interesting. I've read and listened to Frame before and don't have a problem with the way he states the perspectives, per se, but never really thought about the fact that his perspectives sit on the same "plane". I do think he tends to go out of his way to put things into "3's".

ChristianTrader · #8 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianTrader

So Rev. Winzer, you would have less of a problem with multi-per. if there was a hierarchy with some perspectives higher up than others? For example normative over situational?

The perpective would no longer be a norm at the point at which it is subordinated to another perspective, which would destroy the whole concept of multi-perspectivalism. One should obliterate the concept altogether. Obviously contextualisation and situationism is leading us to think more about how circumstances shape the message, but I don't think "perspectivalism" is the answer. We should be looking more at the idea of "universal situations," as when Paul says there is no temptation but what is "common to man." The providential order will help us to see a uniformity across all contexts so that we do not become confused by the diversity in the human situation.

But I think Dr. Frame would say that you would be placing the one over the many or the universal over the particular, while you should instead give equal credence to both. He would agree concerning the commonality of what man experiences but he would say that you do not do proper justice to the particulars of the various situations.

CT

raekwon · #9 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 09:51 AM

Interesting indeed. When I've read and listened to Frame on this, I have almost instinctively seen the normative perspective as "higher" than the other two. It almost seems that it'd be that way by its very nature. Maybe that's just my "perspective".

**KMK** · #10 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

I do think he tends to go out of his way to put things into "3's".

Agreed. It always makes me suspicious. Is there anyone else who is 'gung ho' about triperspectivalism? Or is Frames its only champion?

jpfrench81 · #11 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 03:51 PM

Vern Poythress at WTS also holds to triperspectivalism.