From the "Athanasian Creed" 1: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith."

My intention here is not to redefine the term in its credal sense, but to ask whether we as Reformed believers ought to use the term freely, but in such a way that we distinguish ourselves from Roman Catholicism. In essence, what is the definition of Apostolic Catholicity?

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Philip
Potomac Hills Presbyterian Church (PCA) Leesburg, VA
Attending Reformed Presbyterian Church, Lookout Mountain, GA
Student Covenant College

The Importance of Being Orthodox

Absolutely. It is most catholic.

This is in opposition to Roman Catholicism, which is most un-catholic and sectarian.

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Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade. --John Calvin

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Doesn't catholic merely refer to the fact that is encompasses all of the church, as in the universal church? And in this sense couldn't catholic in the creed refer to the true One Holy Church of Christ made up of those who are saved?

I am not sure, but this is how I have considered it, even if this wasn't what it meant. I have not studied the creeds except to read them.

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Jake; Hold to Original WCF, member of SBC; Greater Atlanta, Georgia Area

The cross does not give us a minor shift or two with regard to a few of our ethical and moral and religious values; the cross radically disrupts the very center and citadel of your life from self to Christ. —Albert N. Martin

"...recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence..."

Both Romanism and Lutheranism have departed from the Chalcedonian Creed regarding Christ. The Reformed faith is the historic catholic faith without apostate accoutrements, contra Rome, which has separated from the catholic church.

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Casey, Chicagoland, OPC

Casey, what is the Lutheran departure from Chalcedon? Just curious.

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Norm
IA PCA

In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5

The "without confusion" is at issue in Lutheranism, their doctrine of kenosis, namely Christ "emptying" himself of his divine attributes in the incarnation. I believe they do the opposite with respect to Christ's humanity, transferring the divine attribute of omnipresence, saying he is humanly/physically present at the Supper (while not teaching transubstantiation).

But consubstantiation. Thanks. Appreciate it.

Off topic, but just a comment about the association of "consubstantiation" with the Lutheran position...

DTK

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Sola Scriptura est norma normans non normata
D. T. King, pastor
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Elkton, Maryland
Augustine (354-430): Therefore what He [i.e., Christ] has deigned to speak to us, we ought to believe that He meant us to understand. But if we do not understand He, being asked, gives understanding, who gave His Word unasked. NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate XXII, §1.

The Reformed Faith is catholic but it is not Catholic. hope that clarifies

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J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>

I am an ex Roman Catholic and now a Reformed Presbyterian Protestant.
Calvin passionately sought for the restoration of the Church Catholic of the Apostles and the Fathers, I wish more Presbyterians laid hold of this. That Presbyterianism is the restoration of and old religion not the innovation of a new religion. Our greatest fault is that we are not connected with the ancient faith as he was.

I am not anti roman catholic.I am today a Reformed Protestant who left the roman church and became a Presbyterian because Presbyterianism is the restoration ofthe ancient faith of the true Christian church founded by Jesus Christ and his apostles. I renounce the papist roman teachings which continue to be apostasy and corrupt the Gospel and the truth of the scriptures. I am a staunch Protestant Presbyterian and a Calvinist because Presbyterianism is the restoration of and old religion not the innovation of a new religion as roman catholicism teaches. We are the heirs of the ancient and true faith. I renounce the pope and roman catholicism as did Calvin and all the reformers. I wish more Protestants would understand and accept this fact. I have found that more ex roman catholics like myself who have become Reformed Protestants do understand that fact better than many cradle Protestants.

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In faith,
Dudley

May we all be Sons of the Reformation and continue to proclaim what it means to be Reformed Protestant Christians!

"The English word "catholic" comes to us from the Latin and was derived from the Greek adjective katholikos, which simply meant 'universal.' The Reformed churches dispute the claim by the Roman see to be the catholic church. In the nature of the case, 'Roman Catholic' is an oxymoron. As the father of the English Puritans, Williams Perkins (1558-1602) noted in 1597, in his work 'Reformed Catholic,' the Roman church is not, according to our understanding of Scripture, really catholic at all, certainly not since her condemnation of the gospel at the Council of Trent (Session 7, 1547).

On the biblical pattern (e.g. I Tim. 3:16), the Reformed churches have confessed the ecumenical or catholic creeds (i.e. the Apostle' Creed, Nicene-Constantinoplitan Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and the Defininiton of Chalcedon). To say that classic or confessional Reformed theology is catholic is also to say that it is deeply connected to the broader history of the church."

Excerpted from "Recovering The Reformed Confession"; authored by R. Scott Clark

(Underlined emphasis, mine.)

Not my words, but personal gleanings from today's readings of the above, which seems to provide answer to your question.

Ronda

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Jim Rush
Elder, Church Of The Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California

TeachingTulip at:
http://TulipTheFlowerOfChristianity.lefora.com

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Soli Deo Gloria,
Jeff - FCC - Georgia


"Every word of God is pure" — Proverbs 30:5

"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it." — Patrick Henry, A.D. 1775

Athanacius held to what Reformed theologians call a high view of the church. Calvin himself held this view, especially in reference to Cyprian in Book 4 of his Institutes (see chapter 1 and all subsequent sections). The Westminster Standards themselves have sought this view in mind when speaking of salvation. It goes as far as to say that salvation is nearly impossible without the Church:
"The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation" (WCF 25.2). So in this sense I believe the church is catholic. I too wish the church read more of the church fathers like the other reformers did. Patristics are important if we're going to understand the reformers and what they taught.

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Julio Martinez Jr.
Member of Grace Presbyterian Church (PCA)
My Blog
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children." Hosea 4:6, ESV

Confuse your Roman and other acquaintances by calling yourself a "Protestant Catholic" or a "Catholic Protestant"

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Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

Of course Reformed theology is Catholic. The Anabaptists recognized this from the start.

Oh wait, wrong question...

[/kidding]

In the sense that Athanasius was writing it, no, Reformed theology is not catholic. "Catholic" as others have pointed out is an adjective meaning "universal", implying that the "catholic faith" is something to which all true Christians universally hold--something which, most agree, is not true of Reformed theology. Therefore, I think what he was talking about is the basic "fundamentals" that defines Christianity(the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, etc.)

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Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

I think everyone here knows that "catholic" means universal, that is not limited to one place (or denomination). We use the word in that sense.

It is not the same as "Roman Catholic" which is of course a denomination, nominally Christian.

Using "catholic" as shorthand for "Roman Catholic" has created confusion though careful use of terms avoids that.

Dr. RC Sproul, in his book, What is Reformed Theology? builds on Reformed Theology with a base that is "catholic" and shares some things in common with the Roman church (such as the doctrine of the Trinity), and then "evangelical" (Protestant), and then reformed distinctives.

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Scott,

Your explanation is perfect and the way I answer it to all as an ex Roman catholic who is now a Reformed Presbyterian Protestant. If one takes note in all my writings on the Internet as well as the 15 posts I have placed here on the Puritan Board in the last few weeks since I joined this site I deliberately say ex Roman catholic not ex catholic. We Presbyterians are catholic in that we profess the true Christian faith as founded by Christ and the apostles. John Calvin and the other Reformed leaders restored the corrupted Roman and papist church to its true Gospel foundations before Rome corrupted the gospel with its false traditions and teachings which run contrary to the truth of scripture.

May we all continue to remember our Reformation heritage as Protestants and continue to proclaim the truth of the gospel of Christ which is universal and catholic in its message.

In grace,
Dudley
An ex Roman catholic and Now born again to the Reformed faith as a Presbyterian Protestant.

I know that Carl Trueman, a man I much admire, recently released a book on John Owen titled "John Owen, Reformed Catholic." But in his defence (sp!), he is English, (poor chap) and the title was chosen before he had become aware of all the American trends. But not everyone can wear the same fashion, and look as good.

I don't mind defining myself according to the creedal terminology "one, holy, catholic/apostolic church".

However, given the history/abuse of the term "catholic" I would personally be wary of using it of myself in any context where I was unsure if I would have adequate room to explain myself and my true meaning.

Sometimes terminology cannot be "recaptured" for good, without coming up with new language. And then, you have to also differentiate yourself from those non-RCC, who nevertheless by their embrasure of "things Medieval" or "ancient" (whether Emergent or FV or what-have-you), are blurring the lines between true and false in favor of an "eclectic" spirituality or an "eld" spirituality.

Why not use a term like "universal"? Means the same thing; doesn't carry the baggage.

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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To see ourselves as others see us.
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In this day and age of all kinds of "universalistic" versions of the gospel, that term carries baggage, too.

I have reverted to always referring to the universal, catholic church, as the "invisible" church body, which I find to be a safer definition, even though most do not know of what I speak.

But I do not mind explaining.

Jim,
If we go with "invisible," we will still have difficulties. WCF 25:2 reads in part, "The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation..."

The point being that some alternate descriptions focus on a particular quality of the church, while purporting to be a most-comprehensive designation.

I just saw a reference to the "...catholic (that is, worldwide) church..."
I kind of like that one--except, does it include the church-triumphant, and the historic church?

- catholic/universal/worldwide,
- visible/invisible,
- historic/eternal/eschatological

We need to define whatever terms we use, and need more than a single term to express the totality of the church's identity.

I remember in the OPC when we recited the creeds the pastor would always comment after the reading of them that "catholic" refers to the universal Church, not Romanism. I always thought that was really helpful, considering the fact that you never know who's visiting or who's struggling with the semantics of the word.

This is especially necessary and helpful given the fact that the Mass also uses the Nicene creed.

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Toni Cunningham, Wife of Bill (Theognome)
Parkwoods OPC, Overland Park KS

"Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, As, to be hated, needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace." ~ Alexander Pope

I should clarify when I answer "no". Reformed Theology is catholic in the sense that it contains those fundamentals which define Christianity, but it is not the catholic faith in the sense that only the Reformed are Christian.

Reformed theology is 'catholic' in the Greek meaning of the word..universal. It is the only Chistian theology which gives total praise to a Soveriegn God and His Son Jesus Christ and places its faith in Christ's once and only needed sacrifice for all who believe in Him alone by his redemptive act on Calvary. I believe our Reformed Protestant theology is universal in that it is scripturally sound. The word catholic is all too often used to describe the roman catholic church and faith.

However Roman catholic theology while belived by practicing roman catholics around the world is not sripturally sound and denies the basic truth of the Gospel that Christ died once and for all who place their faith in Him alone. The best example is the rc teaching of the Lords Supper and what they call the mass and transubstantiation, that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ by the consecration of a rc priest again to be sacrificed on a roman altar.

I am a Presbyterian. I love the sacrament of the Lords Supper but the roman church teaching makes a balsphemy of it.

Dr. Loraine Boettner, in his classic book “Roman Catholicism”, and referring to the rc teaching of trnsubstantiation asks the reader to “Notice that throughout these verses occurs the statement ‘once for all’, which has in it the idea of completeness, or finality, and which precludes repetition. Christ’s work on the cross was perfect and decisive. It constituted one historic event, which need never be repeated, and which in fact cannot be repeated. The language is perfectly clear: ‘He offered one sacrifice for sins for ever’ (10:12). Paul says that ‘Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more’ (Romans 6:9); and the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews says that ‘By one offering he had perfected for ever them that are sanctified’ (10:14)…We are told that Christ has sat down as token that His work is finished.

I am a Presbyterian Protestant and was at one time a roman catholic. I now no longer believe that Christ descends from His Father in heaven to be a further sacrifice upon Rome’s altars or on any other; for such sacrifice there is no need…. Thank God that we Protestants can look back to what our Lord did on Calvary and know that He completed the sacrifice for sins once for all, and that our salvation is not dependent on the decree of any priest or church. Any pretense at a continuous offering for sin is worse than vain, for it is a denial of the efficacy of the atoning sacrifice of Christ on Calvary for all that place their faith in Him alone.

In faith,
Dudley

God Bless you Brother. It is a blessing to hear about people like yourself.

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Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.

Given the way "catholic" is used in the Athanasian Creed, I wondered too if it had this more extended meaning. In other words, a true believer must hold to that basic set of dogma that define Christianity ... and those who hold to this faith make up the catholic church ...

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/