The Sunday School program at my church for the adults consists of sitting around and offering up opinions about what each person thinks God is like. Back when I was the Sunday School director I recommended that we put a stop to this nonsense and reform our Sunday Schools. I recommended and the church bought The Bible Doctrine Workbook series put out by Heritage Books and written by Joel and James Beeke. It consists of 568 questions dealing with theology basics. It is based on the Heidelberg Catechism. We were preparing to begin the series on November 2nd of this year. The church also bought copies of Ursinus Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism and G.I. Williamson's Study Guide on the Heidelberg Catechism for the Sunday School teachers to read. Naturally, being Baptists, we would use Hercules Collin's reformulation of the HC dealing with Baptism. The church as a group would go through the first 114 questions together during the months of August - October. This would have culminated with every member signing a church covenant. However the pastor has decided to continue with the LifeWay material and the current Sunday School setup. He knows that our Sunday Schools are a mess, but refuses to change them. While he is a Calvinist, many of the members are Arminian or don't know what they are. Some are going around sharing copies of 'The Shack' praising how much closer to god it has brought them. Our church has no doctrinal unity and we have no evangelism program for our community. I believe that if we do not reform our Sunday Schools and our worship service that our church will be closed by God. My pastor has decided to pray that God would bring revival. But is it right to expect God to bring revival to a church that refuses to bring itself under the authority of scripture?

I believe the purpose of Sunday School is to train its members in the doctrines of Scripture. I believe the best way of doing this is through catechism. I also believe that having the Sunday Schools catechize all members together in Sunday School that as a church we would have doctrinal unity, a deeper understanding of God and our relationship to him, and as a church we would become a more effective tool for God in our community.

Am I wrong in believing that the Sunday Schools are for discipling and not for encouraging idolatry? Am I wrong in believing our church needs to reform itself? And if I am right in my beliefs what should I do next?

I'm praying that God would convict the Pastor to reform the Sunday Schools, catechize the members, and reform our worship (singing) by bringing in a Psalter.

__________________
Chris Thomas | SBC-Founders | Fairbanks, AK

"Whatever the cause, the Calvinists were the only fighting Protestants. It was they whose faith gave them courage to stand up for the Reformation. In England, Scotland, France, Holland, they,... did the work, and but for them the Reformation would have been crushed... If it had not been for Calvinists,... and whatever you like to call them, the Pope and Philip would have won, and we should either be Papists or Socialists." ~ Sir John Skelton

If we think of Sunday School as an opportunity then it can be productive. I would suggest the Elders get together and ask themselves one particular question: "What is it that we want our people to know?" Then put a scope and sequence together, your plan of teaching doctrine via Heidelberg is sufficient. But you have to think that you only have a limited amount of time on this earth to teach the people of God. The knowledge of the Holy and teaching the doctrines of our holy Religion is vital. If we have a limited amount of time...which we do, then that should force the leadership to think hard about what things are important for their people to know. Sunday school can be a great outlet for catechizing the adults as well as the children.

__________________
Gage Browning (Layman)
Grace Community Presbyterian Church
PCA Fort Worth, Texas

"A Sabbath well spent brings a week of content,
And strength for the toils of the marrow:
But a Sabbath profaned, whate'er may be gained,
Is a certain forerunner of sorrow"

(A.W.Pink)

__________________
Robert Brown
Emmanuel OPC
Kent Washington

Augustine. ' Animam meam in odia haberem'
(Translated) I would hate my own soul if I did not find it loving God

We are currently using Williamson's book on the Westminster Confession for our Sunday School class. In the past, we have had Bible book studies as well as some topical Bible studies.

Your church certainly has some problems that would cause me great concern. We've changed churches gradually to find a more God-honoring, Bible believing one.

That said, only the more committed members come to Sunday School. So not everyone who needs the doctrinal instruction is getting it.

I think all you can do is express your opinion and pray. Then, if there are no changes, perhaps you need to pray about whether you are in the right church.

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Janis
Christ Church ARP, NC
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." Eph. 1:3-6 ESV

You're right. Sunday School is for teaching/correcting doctrine.

And...assimilating / growing members in the Church family (creating relationships, praying for each other, carrying each others burdens, fellowship, etc.)

And...Evangelism, outreaching, and sharing Christ with the community.

When it gets out of balance, it starts to fail at it's mission and can deteriorate rather quickly.

Ken Hemphill's book:

__________________
Steve Butts - Former SBC-er
Three Forms of Unity - Bradenton CRCNA - Bradenton, Florida
(A conservative member in a conservative congregation)

"Turning away to false Theology is equal to turning away to false gods" — Francis Schaeffer (Death in the City)

There are no Reformed Churches in Fairbanks, AK. Before I began attending my current church I had considered a Presbyterian Church. (I know, I know, a baptist in a presbyterian church?!?) They're all PCUSA. Apparently the question, "Do you subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith and its Catechisms?" only gives a, "What's that?" response. When I called the church I'm attending now I asked if the pastor was a Calvinist and if he preached expositionally. That's why I started going there.

My first Sunday School was my last. I don't care what people think about God, only what God reveals about himself. I started off teaching 3-5 graders the Heidelberg Catechism. Then I was made Sunday School Director. I have explained my concerns to the pastor, but he seems to find the Sunday School just fine as is. Yet at the same time he expresses his dismay at the disunity and Biblical ignorance of the members. He has read Mark Dever's books and knows our church is in trouble if we do not change.

I feel like I'm and

I am now considering moving from Fairbanks, AK to somewhere with a Reformed Church.

I have considered starting a Reformation Club up here to bring together people of the Reformed persuasion. Maybe this will help.

Does anybody know of any resources I could give him on the necessity of reforming the church?

Yikes, I am presbyterian but the PCUSA was the first church we LEFT! So I definitely do NOT recommend that!

Well, unless you can move, it looks as though you have good reason to stay where you are. Our last church was a LOT better than a liberal church, but there were plenty of non-reformed materials floating around there. This time, we have a pastor who really oversees the materials and curriculum, and I really, really appreciate that!

We have Dever's book, and I would think that would be a great one for your pastor. But it sounds like he is afraid of teaching doctrine directly in fear that it might offend the Arminians. I'd truthfully rather lose some people than offend God by not feeding the sheep Truth.

I forgot to mention that there is some Reformed Literature in our church. It's put out by R.C. Sproul's group. Looks like one of those 5x8 monthly reader magazines. I forget the title right now. While it is on display, you have to be in the men's bathroom to find it.

Maybe I should offer to do a Wednesday series on the 5 points of Calvinism and Puritan Theology. A few of the men might go and I do have the Amazing Grace DVD.

I understand your frustration, Chris. And, I agree with your assessment of the purpose of what today's Sunday School should be like and of what would be nice to see happen. I also know from experience that, one may very well see the answer to the prayers being said by others, and yet, when they propose the advice, it is not welcomed very much. The sin of those (like me sometimes) with such knowledge of the solution is often their impatience with the work of God on others who are lacking such (not that you are like this). They tend to force square pegs through round holes. But, they must remember that God does not open everyone's mind to the same truths to the same degree, at the same time, as I'm sure you are well aware of. Zeal often runs ahead of wisdom, even with the best. And, sometimes God desires that love and patience for the weak be cultivated at the expense of the very increase of others in their knowledge. Why? I don't know.......God's ways are not our ways. And, perhaps their lack of such growth in knowledge is not as important at that time as patience and longsuffering being cultivated in those with knowledge. So, what do we do? Continue to pray and speak the truth in love as best as you can. And, do so with patience and forebearance, knowing that we must be careful to not break off the bruised reeds, just as Christ was and is. But, hang in there. If you are not being fed, then seek a place to go. If you can endure and be patient and speak the truth at the same time, then do so. Somebody there needs to I suppose. But, I personally would caution against encouraging others to draw lines within their own consciences that are not truly there yet. Encourage the teaching of the catechisms, as you suggest. And, encourage interaction and discussion that furthers their knowledge of Scripture. And, certainly maximize your personal conversations to the edification of others. But, be careful to measure out to others individually according to their needs at the moment. And, work in concert with the Holy Spirit, being cautious not to run ahead or lag behind. As Paul said to the Corinthians, "I wanted to feed you meat, but found that you needed milk and not solid food." And so, we must expect to have to do so for others also. I empathize with you.

Blessings and prayers!

__________________
Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

I have a problem in seeing God as preventing a reform of the Sunday Schools when personal opinions about God contrary to scripture are encouraged in the Sunday Schools. This is really my biggest problem with the Sunday Schools. To me, this is equivalent to teaching idolatry. I don't want Hosea 4:6a "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" to become our church motto.

There is also a general lack of concern about sin (fornication), about holiness. and about obedience to God. The overall attitude is one of: God is a Sunday thing at church only during the preaching as long as it doesn't interfere with my own thoughts. Catechism training is a first step towards alleviating this attitude.

Thank you though for your post. It is something to keep in mind so as to not be completely discouraged. Reminds me I need to pray even more.

Does anyone know of any writings of Spurgeon that deal with Sunday Schools or catechizing? My Pastor is a big Spurgeon fan.

Chris,

I re-read your OP and realized I totally misunderstood the original question. Sorry.

I had a somewhat similar experience at the previous Church where I was the SS Director.

It also was a Baptist Church that fit somewhere between clueless and Arminian. The pastor was definitely Arminian, but he probably had no idea what the label means. Most of the people in the SS classes had the same mentality that you describe - "sitting around and offering up opinions about what each person thinks God is like" describes it well.

Out of the 17 adult classes we had; 12 used the Lifeway material, and the rest came up with their own material. Because the Church was not confessional, the door was open all kinds of teachers and teachings. A lot of "Churches inside of a Church" if you will. It sounds like it may the same way with your Church, if that's case, then maybe you can use that to your advantage.

Rather than moving on, could you consider teaching a class? Do you think the door is open for you to start an adult SS class and choose your own material to teach from? Call it a "Foundations Class"? If so you could fly under the radar and manage to teach some people out of their ignorance. It would be a lot easier to turn a Church around a few people at a time than expect the whole congregation to embrace something foreign to them.

What I found in my previous Church (and with most evangelicals that I brush up against) is that most of the people were not Arminians, they were just clueless and undertaught. Which seems to land them in the Arminian camp by default. Most of them didn't argue against the Reformed Faith, they had just never had it taught to them in a meaningful way.

Just my

Here's something from Spurgeon:

__________________
Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

Here's a good link:

A Puritan Catechism

And this too:

Come Ye Children

Again, brother, I understand your frustration! I often am overwhelmed with such thoughts too. As I'm sure that you understand the sovereignty of God as well as I do, that concept seems to me like the only thing we can lean upon for an appropriate explanation. God creates both progression and regression in our spiritual lives, and yet it only appears as regression from our perspective. In reality, all progresses towards his glory. And so, the resistance that you are experiencing is actually a progression of his saints. God was silent with Israel for 400 years before Christ, and yet he never forsook them. That would be the equivalent of about 6 generations of our church families that we know. And, he was silent for many years towards certain of his own saints within their very lives, and so he used it to progress them towards his ends and purposes, as David and Samson experienced.

But, in saying that, I concur with you that reform in your Sunday School is healthy. I don't want Hosea to be true for you either. The diminished concern for sin and holiness is not good. But, as you well know, the path towards reform must begin with the Spirit in accordance with the word. The Catechism by itself will not progress to any degree. So, as you well said, prayer is utmost and essential. And so, continue with striving to progress further introspection and study of the word through your pre-mentioned appropriate means, and yet do so with patience and longsuffering,.....and also, continue to strive in prayer......

And, so will we......

Blessings and prayers!

Charles Spurgeon on the Importance of Catechizing

Tom J. Nettles also quotes Spurgeon thus:

__________________
Andrew

See p. 62ff in Kerry Ptacek, Family Worship: Biblical Basis, Historical Reality, Current Need for a critique of Sunday School:

Links and Downloads Manager - Worship - Family Worship: Biblical Basis, Historical Reality, Current Need -- Kerry Ptacek - The PuritanBoard

Much on catechism here. It is a google page. heavy on Isaac Watts' stuff.
Catechism

here is Watts' book of catechistical materials.
http://books.google.com/books?id=qaY...ummary_s&cad=0

Do you have the opportunity to disciple others in your church? Have you talked with the Sunday School teachers and Bible study leaders of your church about your concerns?

__________________
Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA

I believe that Seb is be right. If there are no reformed churches around you and if that causes you to come to the conclusion that you belong where you are, why don't you take it on yourself to teach a SS class yourself (and pray hard ) In my experience over the years (and several denominations) Sunday School is almost pointless. I believe tha idealy SS is a great thing with great potential. But my experience with it has been mostly negative. Now that I go to a PCA we have a great adult class but the women have whatever they want (which is usually disasterous and non-reformed). Praise God though! I asked the pastor to take my sons through the Westminster Catechism and that is their "Sunday School."
I like your idea of having a Reformed Club and have been considering that myself for some time in my town.

__________________
Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

Should read morrow, not marrow. Unless you will be vegetable growing on Mondays.

__________________
Jonathan Hunt

Elder holding forth the word of life at:
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

Right now everyone is happy with the classes they have. Sitting around offering up their own opinion of how they view God (some subscribe to "The Shack" theology) is what Sunday School is to them. To me, such a practice is nothing more than encouraging idolatry. Regrettably, they enjoy their idolatry. Otherwise I would teach a Foundation Class.

I had hoped that the pastor would be willing to change the Sunday School classes and at first he was. Now there is no desire to change any of it. Add to that no desire to sing Psalms and an increase in joke telling to the sermons and the situation does not look good. It's becoming more Arminian every day.