Are the Preaching and Sacramental Administration by Female Pastors Means of Grace?

Theoretical · #1 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 08:46 PM

Note: This is not about whether women should preach and/or administer the sacraments, as that is something to which I'm adamantly opposed.

Instead, this is a question about whether when women perform these functions whether their preaching and sacramental administration are still means of grace.

Or, are these prima facie illegitimate no matter how orthodox the teaching is or method of sacramental administration is otherwise?

Ivan · #2 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 08:52 PM

I remember someone saying that a woman preaching is like a dog walking on his hind legs...he can do it but not well.

Exagorazo · #3 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 08:58 PM

I went unsure. Good question, I'm still fairly new to the understanding of the means of grace.

27:3 The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them: neither doth the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that doth administer it: but upon the work of the Spirit, and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.

I'd like to see what happens with this poll...

Ivan · #4 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:01 PM

I didn't see the poll...well, as the question is posed I'm undecided as to the Sacraments.

Will read with interest and hope to be edified.

Dr Mike Kear · #5 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:04 PM

Irregular, but God may still use as a means of grace.

NaphtaliPress · #6 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:07 PM

Some things from the WLC to consider in this:

Quote:

Q151.By whom is the Word of God to be preached?
The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, (k) and also duly approved and called to that office. (l)

k 1TI 3:2, 6; EPH 4:8-11; HOS 4:6; MAL 2:7; 2CO 3:6
l JER 14:15; ROM 10:15; HEB 5:4; 1CO 12:28-29; 1TI 3:10; 1TI 4:14; 1TI 5:22 [JER 14:13 but text correct: Maxey; RothB; THIRD; FOURTH; COX. Corrected by Dunlop/L&R/RP.]

Variants:
1)In “k”: EPH 4:6-11: RPc.
2)“approved, and called”: MSa; Tyler1.

Q151.How do the Sacraments become effectual means of salvation? The Sacraments become effectual means of salvation, not by any power in themselves, or any virtue derived from the piety and intention of him by whom they are administered; but only by the working of the Holy Ghost, and the blessing of Christ by whom they are instituted. (s)

s 1PE 3:21; ACT 8:13 With ACT 8:23; 1CO 3:6-7; 1CO 12:13 [Compared With etc]

Variants:
1)(1) “salvation not”: Tyler. (2) “salvation; not”: RothB; THIRD; COX. The comma is in FOURTH.
2)“piety, and”: MSb.
3)“piety or intention”: Dunlop changed and this was picked up by L&R (e.rob etc.) and passed down through the traditional text to today. RP retained the “and”.
4)“but, only”: MSa.
5)“Christ, by”: RPa; E.Rob.

Ivan · #7 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Some things from the WLC to consider in this:

Quote:

Q151.By whom is the Word of God to be preached?
The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, (k) and also duly approved and called to that office. (l)

k 1TI 3:2, 6; EPH 4:8-11; HOS 4:6; MAL 2:7; 2CO 3:6
l JER 14:15; ROM 10:15; HEB 5:4; 1CO 12:28-29; 1TI 3:10; 1TI 4:14; 1TI 5:22 [JER 14:13 but text correct: Maxey; RothB; THIRD; FOURTH; COX. Corrected by Dunlop/L&R/RP.]

Variants:
1)In “k”: EPH 4:6-11: RPc.
2)“approved, and called”: MSa; Tyler1.

Q151.How do the Sacraments become effectual means of salvation? The Sacraments become effectual means of salvation, not by any power in themselves, or any virtue derived from the piety and intention of him by whom they are administered; but only by the working of the Holy Ghost, and the blessing of Christ by whom they are instituted. (s)

s 1PE 3:21; ACT 8:13 With ACT 8:23; 1CO 3:6-7; 1CO 12:13 [Compared With etc]

Variants:
1)(1) “salvation not”: Tyler. (2) “salvation; not”: RothB; THIRD; COX. The comma is in FOURTH.
2)“piety, and”: MSb.
3)“piety or intention”: Dunlop changed and this was picked up by L&R (e.rob etc.) and passed down through the traditional text to today. RP retained the “and”.
4)“but, only”: MSa.
5)“Christ, by”: RPa; E.Rob.

Preaching, no...Sacraments, yes?

NaphtaliPress · #8 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:11 PM

Don't rush me; I said some things to consider.

DMcFadden · #9 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

I remember someone saying that a woman preaching is like a dog walking on his hind legs...he can do it but not well.

If the Lord can speak through Balaam's Ass, and if he can speak through me, I have no doubt that he is capable of speaking through a Godly woman. This does not touch upon the issue of the ordination of women. One may consistently invite qualified women to speak in the pulpit on occasion and still oppose the ordination of women. On the other hand, my wife (with three seminary degrees), faithfully serves in the area of Christian education and family life ministry without aspiring EVER to speak from the pulpit or to be ordained.

Joshua · #10 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Don't rush me; I said some things to consider.

Hurry up! Hurry up!

Ivan · #11 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

I remember someone saying that a woman preaching is like a dog walking on his hind legs...he can do it but not well.

If the Lord can speak through Balaam's Ass, and if he can speak through me, I have no doubt that he is capable of speaking through a Godly woman. This does not touch upon the issue of the ordination of women. One may consistently invite qualified women to speak in the pulpit on occasion and still oppose the ordination of women. On the other hand, my wife (with three seminary degrees), faithfully serves in the area of Christian education and family life ministry without aspiring EVER to speak from the pulpit or to be ordained.

Preaching and speaking...apples and....well, you know.

SRoper · #12 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:43 PM

Although I'm not completely sure, I put both are still means of grace. "Unsure" is always uninteresting in poll results.

Ivan · #13 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRoper

Although I'm not completely sure, I put both are still means of grace. "Unsure" is always uninteresting in poll results.

Believe it or not, I'm leaning that way.

toddpedlar · #14 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Mike Kear

Irregular, but God may still use as a means of grace.

Hm... certainly God can use an unlawful, and even evil, act to bless people. I should
think that something like this - unlawful, and a perversion of God's word - could never
be expected (except as God sometimes providentially uses things that are contrary to
His law in order to accomplish His purposes) to serve as a means of grace in the way
we use the term.

Peter · #15 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

I've thought about this (and anyone unordained or improperly ordained) before and this passage came to mind.

Southern Presbyterian · #16 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 11:28 PM

I haven't voted yet, but I'm leaning toward "Neither".

I have a question first. Would a church with a female pastor (elder) be considered a true church? After all, it would be clearly violating Scripture (though I might stop just short of calling it a synagogue of Satan). Right?

bookslover · #17 (**permalink**) 10-29-2007, 01:10 AM

Didn't the early church decide (based on Scripture) that the efficacy of the sacraments is not dependent on the administrator of same? I don't women as pastors or preachers is biblical, but I don't think that if a woman administered the preached or administered the sacraments, they would be inefficacious merely for that reason. Paul, after all, was glad when the gospel was preached even from dishonest motives.

bookslover · #18 (**permalink**) 10-29-2007, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

I remember someone saying that a woman preaching is like a dog walking on his hind legs...he can do it but not well.

The "someone" was Dr. Samuel Johnson (1709-1784), the great English lexicographer and author, and the exact quote, as found in James Boswell's (1740-1795) The Life of Samuel Johnson, LL.D (1791) runs thusly:

Next day, Sunday, July 31 [1763], I told him I had been, that morning, at a meeting of the people called Quakers, where I had heard a woman preach. JOHNSON: "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hinder legs. It is not done well; but you are surprized to find it done at all."

clstamper · #19 (**permalink**) 10-29-2007, 02:22 AM

Here's my fear. Somebody gets baptized in a mainline denomination where most of the ministers are female. Decades later, he converts. When he goes to his local session, he can't figure out the gender of the minister who baptized him. What to do?