The PuritanBoard  

Go Back   The PuritanBoard > Theology > Theological Forum > Ecclesiology

Ecclesiology Discussion of Church Government, Polity and the like
that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15)

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God.

» Online Users: 52
2 members and 50 guests
tabrooks, Theoretical
Most users ever online was 856, 07-06-2007 at 12:19 AM.
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2008, 04:11 PM
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 4,956
Thanks: 906
Thanked 820 Times in 504 Posts
Pliny the Younger on Deaconesses

For one of my classes I recently read one of Pliny the Younger's letters to the emperor Trajan about the Christians in his province. At one point he said that he had to have two women interrogated through torture to get some information, and he says that the two women were called deaconesses.

Quote:
Quo magis necessarium credidi ex duabus ancillis, quae ministrae dicebantur, quid esset veri, et per tormenta quaerere.
Quote:
I believed it all the more necessary to investigate by means of torture what the truth was from two servant women who were called "deaconesses [ministrae]."
What are the ministrae he's talking about?
__________________
Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

Last edited by Davidius; 12-09-2008 at 05:03 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2008, 05:20 PM
Puritanboard Postgraduate
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,714
Thanks: 716
Thanked 420 Times in 309 Posts
wives of deacons, of course!

__________________
-JD
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2008, 05:48 PM
Prufrock's Avatar
Arbitrary Moderation
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 2,908
Thanks: 824
Thanked 1,699 Times in 743 Posts
Deaconesses were quite common in the early church, perhaps through the twelfth century in the West. We find canons and decrees about them in places such as the Council of Nicaea in 325 (canon IX) and the fourth council of Carthage in 398, where the following was stated:

"Widows and dedicated women (sanctimoniales) who are chosen to assist at the baptism of women, should be so well instructed in their office as to be able to teach aptly and properly unskilled and rustic women how to answer at the time of their baptism to the questions put to them, and also how to live godly after they have been baptized." (Schaff).

They were women whose duties revolved entirely around woman, appointed to office for those roles which they thought it appropriate only for women to do (i.e., certain things pertaining to baptism, especially when practiced by immersion), and for various other tasks.
__________________
Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade. --John Calvin

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Prufrock For This Useful Post:
Ex Nihilo (12-09-2008), Marrow Man (10-27-2008)
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2008, 08:45 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,399
Thanks: 2,681
Thanked 2,834 Times in 1,468 Posts
What did these women do at baptisms?
__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2008, 09:15 PM
Prufrock's Avatar
Arbitrary Moderation
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Flint, MI
Posts: 2,908
Thanks: 824
Thanked 1,699 Times in 743 Posts
I'm not sure what exactly they did for baptism. My encounters with the concept of the ancient deaconnesses are limited to when they appear in canon law and in the canons of church councils--I know of them legally, not practically.

But, patching together these sources, it appears that they were frequently employed (with reference) in the catechizing of other women, in preparing them to answer questions at baptism, and in assisting the women who were immersed where it would be "inappropriate" for men to be involved. Mostly, however, they were employed in the catechizing and teaching of women, and in attending to their needs.

Sorry I can't be of more help; you will find frequent mention of them in the church fathers, and in the decrees of many councils. According to the historian Schaff, for information regarding the history and role of the ancient deaconness, the best place to start is in Thomassinus, Ancienne et
Nouvelle Discipline de l’ Eglise, I Partie, Livre III, but I have never read this. (Hopefully you can read French...) Again, sorry I couldn't help more.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following User Says Thank You to Prufrock For This Useful Post:
Kevin (10-26-2008)
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2008, 05:05 PM
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 4,956
Thanks: 906
Thanked 820 Times in 504 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by panta dokimazete View Post
wives of deacons, of course!

It's unlikely that this is the case. Whereas Pliny says they were known among Christians as ministrae, he himself refers to them as ancillae, slave women. This is apparently because he saw them referenced as "servants" and assumed that they were slaves. Our word "minister" is the same in form as it was in Latin, and was sometimes used in pre-Christian literature to refer to slaves, meaning "attendant" or "servant." Ministra is the feminine form.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2008, 05:31 PM
Puritanboard Junior
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Encino, California
Posts: 1,555
Thanks: 620
Thanked 425 Times in 222 Posts
Lets take into consideration that in languages such as greek and latin, there exist the feminine and the masculine form of a word. So the words ministry, deacon(english for servant) pertains to either male or female. A good example of this in english is the words waiter/waitress. Therefore, it is no surprised that the early church (greek/latin) used deaconess for female servants. For this reason, it does not mean that although for the church it is o.k. to have female servants or deaconess to help within the church, it does not mean that they are to preach/teach, be ordained, and to have authoirty over men.
__________________
Gil Garcia
Rehoboth Reformed Church (RCUS)
La Habra, CA

"Ignorance of this distinction between Law and Gospel is one of the principal sources of the abuses which corrupted and still corrupt Christianity." - Calvin's successor


"By the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do. How is it that you theologians are twice as stupid as schoolboys, in that as soon as you get hold of a single imperative verb you infer an indicative meaning...?"
-Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2008, 05:36 PM
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 4,956
Thanks: 906
Thanked 820 Times in 504 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolaGratia View Post
Lets take into consideration that in languages such as greek and latin, there exist the feminine and the masculine form of a word. So the words ministry, deacon(english for servant) pertains to either male or female. A good example of this in english is the words waiter/waitress. Therefore, it is no surprised that the early church (greek/latin) used deaconess for female servants. For this reason, it does not mean that although for the church it is o.k. to have female servants or deaconess to help within the church, it does not mean that they are to preach/teach, be ordained, and to have authoirty over men.
Your post is a little hard to understand, but from what I get of it, your contention has more to do with the nature of diaconal responsibilities than whether there is an office of "deaconess." Are you saying that there is a such thing as a deaconess, but that is an unordained office with no teaching capability?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2008, 05:39 PM
Scott1's Avatar
Puritanboard Postgraduate
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 4,866
Thanks: 1,905
Thanked 1,840 Times in 1,091 Posts
Brian Schwertley has done research on the topic of women deacons, "A Historical and Biblical Examination of Women Deacons" and mentions Pliny the Younger and the comments you quote:

A Historical and Biblical Examination of Women Deacons

Basically, the clear trajectory of church history has been that women did not serve as (I Timothy 3) Deacons. They were assistants to the (I Timothy 3) Deacons and certainly engaged in diaconal (mercy) work.

From the historical record (going back to the Apostles), the closest women got to being in an office to do diaconal work was the I Timothy 5 "servant widow"- an unordained office, supported by the church for 60 year old destitute widows. The office appears to have been under the authority of the (I Timothy 3) Deacons, historically speaking. I Timothy 5 explicitly lays out biblical qualifications for this office.

Because the terms for (the office of) "Deacon" and for "servant" are basically the same in the original languages, it can be confusing as we try to interpret history. But keep in mind that the historical record strongly suggests that women were never understood to have the office of Deacon until the modernism (liberalism) of the past 100 years or so. They were assistants to them and were servants of many kinds in the church.

Women have long served in the church, and in many times of church history did mercy ministry, but not in capacity as I Timothy 3 Deacons and under authority of the offices of bishop, elder and deacon- offices given to men only, in accordance with Scripture.
__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina



"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following User Says Thank You to Scott1 For This Useful Post:
SolaGratia (12-12-2008)
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.0

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2 ©2009, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2002-2008 PuritanBoard.com
Hosted by WebsiteMaven - helping ministries with web hosting advice, reviews, and design.
67 Westminster Abbey © Confessional Presbyterian Presses - used with permission.
Add Our Custom Button to your Google Toolbar

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69