Order to Chaos in Orthodoxy

non dignus · #1 (**permalink**) 08-13-2007, 12:41 PM

The natural tendency of earthly institutions to degrade is shown in churches that apostasize and split into denominations. It seems that any good organization has a noble start but after years of growth and maturity devolves into a corrupted monster-version of it's former self. (The U.S. federal government, and PCUSA comes to mind)

Does anyone know of any churches/denominations that have exihibited a contrary trend of actually getting better slowly over time- SLOWLY over time?

For example, has there ever been an Arminian congregation that was slowly infiltrated by Calvinists until such a time that it was thoroughly converted from Arminianism?

Or, has there ever been a Baptist congregation that was slowly 'corrupted' by a trickling influx of Paedo-Baptists until the congregation jettisoned it's baptistic leanings in favor of infant sprinkling?

If not, would the "degradation trend" be evidence for discerning what is Biblical truth considering that "order tends to chaos" and "orthodoxy tends to unorthodoxy"?

victorbravo · #2 (**permalink**) 08-13-2007, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non dignus

Or, has there ever been a Baptist congregation that was slowly 'corrupted' by a trickling influx of Paedo-Baptists until the congregation jettisoned it's baptistic leanings in favor of infant sprinkling?

A certain EFC in Moscow, Idaho comes to mind, but that may have been more top-down than bottom-up.

Edited to add: Seriously, I can think of several arminian-type Baptist churches that are slowly returning to the Doctrines of Grace. The Founders Movement seems to be a slow and positive process too.

Scott · #3 (**permalink**) 08-13-2007, 02:22 PM

A good, although unfortunately rare, example of institutional improvement is the Southern Baptist Convention. Like other large denominations, by the early 70s the SBC had come under domination of liberals. Paige Patterson and others led a fight to restore conservative control. They succeeded. The SBC controls the seminaries, which influence the direction and beliefs of pastors.

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Patterson is best known for his leadership of the fundamentalist rescue of the SBC during the late 1970s and 1980s. Recognizing that the SBC president could (albeit through a lengthy process) influence the direction of the SBC (which Patterson and other fundamentalists believed was taking a liberal track in opposition to their interpretation of the Scriptures), starting in 1979, Patterson led Southern Baptists to elect fundamentalist convention presidents, beginning with Adrian Rogers. Patterson and his supporters were able to win these elections by organizing hundreds of churches to send messengers (as many as 40,000) who were committed to voting for the fundamentalist candidates.

The fundamentalists that Patterson led were known for their tenacity, using SBC structure and as some critics charge, illegal or immoral means to further the cause. By the time Patterson took over as president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, TX, the fundamentalist leadership required that all faculty sign documents stating their allegiance to fundamentalist theology, most notably, the controversial Baptist Faith and Message.

Now you have some incredible people at the head of SBC seminaries. Al Mohler is an example. Apart from the restoration, the seminaties would have Dean Relativist and Professor BelieveWhateverYouWanExceptOrthodoxy.

R. Scott Clark · #4 (**permalink**) 08-13-2007, 03:55 PM

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Does anyone know of any churches/denominations that have exihibited a contrary trend of actually getting better slowly over time- SLOWLY over time?

This is tough, but there are few examples. The Worldwide Church of God - the Armstrong folk - have improved.

Some segments of the Seventh Day Adventists have become more mainstream "evangelical."

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod formally repelled the libs in the 70s.

The doctrine of predestination is gaining a stronger hold in the SBC.

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For example, has there ever been an Arminian congregation that was slowly infiltrated by Calvinists until such a time that it was thoroughly converted from Arminianism?

Yes, I've seen this. I've known this to happen in a number of congregations. I get email about this from time to time

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Or, has there ever been a Baptist congregation that was slowly 'corrupted' by a trickling influx of Paedo-Baptists until the congregation jettisoned it's baptistic leanings in favor of infant sprinkling?

Yes, see above.

rsc

armourbearer · #5 (**permalink**) 08-13-2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non dignus

If not, would the "degradation trend" be evidence for discerning what is Biblical truth considering that "order tends to chaos" and "orthodoxy tends to unorthodoxy"?

I don't think so, since we are bound to biblical truth to discover what the degradation is. Lloyd Jones' "What is an Evangelical" is good on this.

KMK · #6 (**permalink**) 08-13-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victorbravo

Seriously, I can think of several arminian-type Baptist churches that are slowly returning to the Doctrines of Grace. The Founders Movement seems to be a slow and positive process too.

I have first hand knowledge of several as well. (Praise God!!!!!)

non dignus · #7 (**permalink**) 08-14-2007, 01:20 AM

That is good news. With God all things are possible. Amen.

non dignus · #8 (**permalink**) 08-14-2007, 01:32 AM

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Originally Posted by armourbearer

Quote:

Originally Posted by non dignus

If not, would the "degradation trend" be evidence for discerning what is Biblical truth considering that "order tends to chaos" and "orthodoxy tends to unorthodoxy"?

I don't think so, since we are bound to biblical truth to discover what the degradation is. Lloyd Jones' "What is an Evangelical" is good on this.

Thanks for the title, Rev. Winzer.

Of course defining degradation is key. But I'm thinking of the layman who hears good arguments from both sides but might appeal to historical trends as evidence for orthodoxy. It seems that gradual degradation is more common than gradual reformation.

North Jersey Baptist · #9 (**permalink**) 08-14-2007, 01:35 AM

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Or, has there ever been a Baptist congregation that was slowly 'corrupted' by a trickling influx of Paedo-Baptists until the congregation jettisoned it's baptistic leanings in favor of infant sprinkling?

I'm sorry. I couldn't let this comment go by unchallenged. Has there ever been a Paedo congregation that was slowly 'corrupted' by a trickling influx of Credo-Baptists until the congregation jettisoned it's sprinkling leanings in favor of immersion? Sorry David, not a direct challenge but just a Baptist twist to your OP.

non dignus · #10 (**permalink**) 08-14-2007, 08:30 AM

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Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

Quote:

Or, has there ever been a Baptist congregation that was slowly 'corrupted' by a trickling influx of Paedo-Baptists until the congregation jettisoned it's baptistic leanings in favor of infant sprinkling?

I'm sorry. I couldn't let this comment go by unchallenged. Has there ever been a Paedo congregation that was slowly 'corrupted' by a trickling influx of Credo-Baptists until the congregation jettisoned it's sprinkling leanings in favor of immersion? Sorry David, not a direct challenge but just a Baptist twist to your OP.

Bill,
You know me all too well.

You're in Southern California and I'm in Northwestern Montana. We may never come together!

Seriously, you are right; this was in my mind. And I am puzzled why the Lord did not mark out the doctrine of Baptism more explicitly because I see good men on both sides with good argumentation. Being a layman, I am looking for any kind of evidence I can possibly get so as not to be deceived. For example, if one looks at the best cultures of the world, one sees the Christian societies were or are superior to the non-Christian societies. This kind of evidence would help get one into the religious ballpark so to speak.

Order to chaos in the doctrine of justification had occured in the OT church with a remnant coming out in Christ. The same trend occured after Augustine until the Reformation. There was Arminian revivalism, and now we see the Federal Vision gnawing away at it.

To answer your gentle challenge, I would say yes, history shows more often the tendency for churches to end up going down to the river.