Here's a question for the PCAers

This morning the deacon nominations were listed, and there was a woman on the list. I did not believe that the PCA was in the habit of ordaining women as deacons. Are there any other PCA churches that have women as deacons?

To complicate the issue, this will be our first diaconate. My greatest concern is that this is the first departure from orthodoxy that I have seen, and it concerns me that there are other issues that are lurking in the wings.

__________________
David Kicklighter
East Lanier Community Church (PCA)
Buford, GA

David,

The first thing is to make sure that the woman listed was not an unordained assistant to the deacons. The BCO permits that, since the woman does not actually hold the office of deacon, and has no special standing except in her commitment to assist the deacons.

If that is NOT the case and indeed the woman has been nominated to the office of deacon, it is a violation of the BCO and is a chargable offense against the Session. If you are certain that it is to the office of deacon, and I were you, I would respectfully raise the issue with the Session. They simply might not be aware of the prohibition (as crazy as that sounds)

I had a discussion during a congregational meeting once where an uninstalled elder insisted to me in front of the congregation that the PCA allowed women deacons, but our church had not done that yet. He insisted that he read it in the BCO - which of course he could not have. He was confused, having misread the assistant provision.

Anyway, now this is ME, not necessarily you - if the Session were aware, and intended to flout the BCO because they believed that women deacons were permissible, I would file a complaint with the Session. If that did not work, I would file an appeal with Presbytery. If that did not work, I would take it to GA. THAT IS HOW IMPORTANT I THINK IT IS.

If for some reason the PCA GA did not address the matter - which is incredibly unlikely - I would probably leave the denomination.

__________________
Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Fred,
Wouldn't the GA branch of the PCA be held to the fire by the national branch or are states functioning autonomously?

[Edited on 10-31-2004 by Scott Bushey]

__________________
Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Sorry, I went into PCA insider mode.

BY "GA" I meant the General Assembly (highest court) of the PCA, not Georgia.

Oops.

Thanks for your response Fred. I have fired off an inquiry to the pastor and will be calling him in the morning. I'll let you know what happens.

I kinda understand David's concern regarding having women as ordained in the office of Deacon.

I am a member of the First Church of God (Anderson, IN) and my local church is approximately 100+ years old. Throughout that entire period the body never instituted a Diaconate.

Two years ago our pastor's vision included the proper structuring of the Church to include a Diaconate. He prayerfully picked 11 members from the Church which included 6 women.

After our ordination and during a period of formal training, I was chosen to Chair the Deacon Board. From personal experience I have to admit that the most enthusiastic, reliable, and supportive members under my care are the Deaconesses.

I know the male-female issue is of critical importance throughout the Scriptures, and the women that serve with me are equally fearful not to exercise outside the boundaries set forth in Scripture.

I can only report of my local congregation and the positive effects as seen within the Church.

Howard

__________________
Howard Goens, Jr
Deacon, First Church of God (Anderson, IN)
Decatur, MI

Howard,
Welcome! Please click on the link at the bottom of my post entitled 'signature requirements' and set up your sig according to board policy.

Thanks,
SPB

Howard,

Respectfully, do not make Providence your Bible.

Please, Brother Fred, don't stop there...

Here's the skinny.

1. The deacons will not be ordained, they will be commissioned. This will allow women to serve in a deacon role, but not wield any authority, and therefore skirting around the BCO. Basically a semantic loophole.

2. We will not be the only church that does this. Several PCA churches have adopted this practice to allow for deaconesses, including Redeemer PCA in NY.

I think this is major developing issue in the PCA, and really confirms to me the rift that is forming between progressive and conservative PCA churches.

Sigh...

All this after I finally find a PCA is my area. I will speak to my pastor to see what he thinks of this. Thanks for sharing!

__________________
Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

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"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

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As a former deacon in the RPCNA, which does permit ordained deaconesses, who also has a conviction that there is no Scriptural warrant for women deaconesses, I can testify that this issue is destructive to the church at large in many ways. Although the RPCNA views the office of deacon/deaconess in a more administrative light than the PCA (I think), it still relates to the question of what is signified by ordination and what Scriptural limits are placed on that office. The effort to "skirt" the requirements of the BCO is clearly an end-run on Scriptural and constitutional requirements.

__________________
Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

David,

You are correct in saying that they are skirting around the BCO. I would recommend getting a ruling from your Presbytery or even writing a letter to the Commitee on Constitutional Business, which is a committee of GA.

IMHO, if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and even called a duck, its a duck! formally ordained or not.

__________________
~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

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My pastor gave me a couple of prominent PCA churches that practice this. And the concept of commissioning vs. ordination came from the Stated Clerk.

I read something this morning from Richard Pratt's group
that indicated that there is a view that the PCA gives deacons too much authority, and that is why women are excluded. It seems there is a movement in the PCA to change the BCO, but it's going to take a long time.

Painful, but not surprising. Yes indeed the powers that be have winked at Redeemer's violation of the spirit of the BCO.

Notice that the result of this game is to deny the Biblical office of deacon altogether, the doctrine of ordination, and to create division and schism, all ion the name of inclusivism.

It sickens me.

Fred,

I am really not that surprised. Though the BCO recognizes only 2 offices of Deacon and Elder and they are both "equal". In all practicality the PCA has a very heirarchial view of the these offices. TE's don't expect much from RE's and even less from Deacons. If you can push a lawn mower, you can be a Deacon.

Ha ... you guys are firtunate. The Presbyterian Church in Ireland not only ordains deaconesses but Elder-esses ... yes, thats correct ... female Elders. I attend a PCI church (even though I am credo-baptist) and I have to admit that the whole structure of overseers and deacons needs stripped down and built up Biblically. We have about 500 attending our church and over 1000 associated with it through family connections etc. We have about 30 Elders (including the women) and 1 deaconess.

The problem is that it is taught (implicitly I think) in the Presbyterian College that women are permitted in these roles. You then have pastors who are passionately evangelical but don't want to teach on such a divisive issue as they don't see it as important to the health of the church.

So I have had a choice in my joining a church ... Baptist church, which for the most part are old school dispensational ... Brethren, which are all old school dispensational ... Reformed Presbyterian Church, which would not receive me into membership due to my belief about baptism ... Free Presbyterian church, which is just nasty and angry and schismatic ... Presbyterian church, which has the problems I just mentioned. In the end I had to think about all these issues and make an informed choice.

Pray for the church in Northern Ireland please.

Duke

__________________
Dr Philip S. Taylor
Husband to Jayne
Member of Whiteabbey Presbyterian Church (PCI)
Reformed Bap (most of the time)
Research Fellow (Queen's University Belfast)
Belfast, Northern Ireland
[url]http://sixteensixteen.blogspot.com[/url]

Greetings, brother! It is often on my heart to pray for the church in Ulster. I have worshipped in congregations of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland and use their psalter to this day. Although not in theological agreement with aspects of the Free Presbyterian Church, I do have great respect for Ian Paisley. My Huguenot ancestors came to America by way of Ireland and I love the Scotch-Irish heritage that we have in America. Let us indeed pray for our cousins across the pond.

Where in the Bible do we get the idea that our church servants (deacons as the word is translated literally) have any authority? Servants serve, they do not lead.

The whole problem here is not that women are being put in these positions but that the PCA and other such denominiations assign authority to the deacons when the Bible assigns them NONE.

In the NT the deacons did what the church and elders told them to do. They are servants and servants do not rule.

Phillip

__________________
Pastor Phillip M. Way
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[b]The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 18:27[/b]

Philip,

Did Jesus have authority? He served. Service does not mean reliquishing authority.

Do ministers/pastors have authority? They serve.

The very fact that an office exists means that it has authority. Otherwise there would be no reason for the office. Why would we need an office - or QUALIFICATIONS for that matter- if anyone could serve in that capacity?

The scripture certainly teaches that deacons are a distinct officer in the church. (i.e. the Office of deacon). This office is perpetual. They are not to preach the word, or administer the sacraments, but to take special care in distributing to the necessities of the poor. They have been given authority to do this (see the Authority given to them to serve in Acts 6, and the non negotiable qualifications of the office in 1 Timothy 3).

Elders are also servants. They serve the church in an official capacity as preachers or heralds of the word.

Both offices (i.e. official capacities) are authoritative for their given tasks. In other words, it would be as wrong to tell an elder not to preach as it would to tell a deacon not to distribute to the poor. Both are officially given official rights to minister in their specific capacities.

Both lead by example. Everyone is to minister to one another, however, some have greater responsibility than others in that official office.

__________________
C. Matthew McMahon, Ph.D.
John 5:39, "...search the Scriptures..."

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon.com, www.apuritansmind.com and www.puritanpublications.com
Member - Christ Presbyterian Church, Professor at WTS for Puritan History & Theology.

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Thought I'd revive this thread rather than start a new one.

I'm going through the membership process at my local PCA church. I have discovered that the elders have adopted the Redeemer NY position on deacons and deaconesses. They even have a paper from this church in their membership class materials. I am new to the PCA, so I'm trying to figure out how widespread this teaching is and how they reconcile it with the Book of Church Order. If nothing else, I find the attitude to be schismatic.

Are there any rulings or "case law" on this matter?

__________________
Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA): "A bunch of hippie Calvinists"
Winston-Salem, NC

What is the Greek and literal translation of this verse? (taken from the ESV):

Actually, the most significant word is Gunai/kaj
This word can mean "women" and it can mean "wives." It is used each way fairly commonly. The word (in the ESV) "their" is supplied to help it fit the context. I think from the context it is most natural to see that it is the deacons' wives that are being discussed (hence I think that the ESV - and virtually all other modern translations - get it right).

__________________
Ben
Sanford, NC
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA