So then you aren't against rap or a hip hop style of music as long as it doesn't serve to alleviate human misery? I agree. The same applies for classical, country, or any other kind.

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Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

Amen. Wouldn't you say that those who consider hiphop and rock "noise", are dependent on their type of music. That even when the gospel is being faithfully preached, in this type of music they will reject it because of its rythm. Are they also not being dependent on their music?

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"I thank Thee that many of my prayers have been refused. I have asked amiss and do not have, I have prayed from lusts and been rejected, I have longed for Egypt and been given a wilderness".-Unknown

Julio, Amaya
Clifton, NewJersey
Reformed Baptist Church of North Bergen

John Kennedy provides a 19th century conservative Calvinist perspective on the Moody-Sankey introduction of music to further the gospel.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

I would like to clarify that I am not trying to justify the use of music for the furtherance of the Gospel (nor have I argued for such). I believe in the "Ordinary Means of Grace" alone serve that purpose, as God has intended. I'm simply trying to make the point that a group of musical notes arranged in a certain style/manner cannot be condemned as universally sinful for all people without exception. To imply that certain music is inherently "immoral" is without biblical warrant. As far as I'm concerned the Christian music I listen to is understood by me the same why I understand human composed hymns. They're for my enjoyment and meditation, and that's it.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

The core issue is dependance.

Much of modern music is reflective of drug, moral, sexual, emotional, spiritual dependance.

IOW's music is a highly addictive drug upon which multitudes are hooked.

The church should be ready and willing to deal with this addiction, while refusing such dependancy within their midst.

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Ronda Rush
Church of the Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California


" . . .It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'" Matthew 4:4

I haven't met anyone who lives like the Puritans did.

How is rap in and of itself worldly? Where is his Scriptural support?

I would have to agree that heavy metal (and I even like secular heavy metal music) doesn't belong in worship as it's not understandable/singable to all ppl and can create disorganization/confusion. But he cannot exclude contemporary music just bc it's contemporary. If it's solid, biblical doctrine they are singing, then he has no Scriptural support for excluding it (and I don't like contemporary Christian music really but it has nothing to do with what I like).

I agree this is a problem.

So he apparently doesn't like secular music this sounds charismatic to me. If the music doesn't have anything in it breaking God's laws, then making a law against it is a man-made law. Making man-made laws is placing one's self in the position of God....it's legalism. Legalism helps self-righteous ppl to live up to a standard that they think is holy bc they can't live up to God's. One should concentrate on obeying the laws He has set forth instead of making up laws. Obviously, I'm not stating that secular music should be in worship.

I like calm, frozen-chosen, hymnal singing myself, but I cannot tell another person that energetic, biblical singing is morally wrong in the worship service. The path of truth is narrow... go off too far in one direction you stray from RPW....go off too far in the other direction you hit legalism. We should be zealous to keep ourselves and our worship free from sin but also free from person preferences.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

I agree, Joshua; but at the point the arranged notes are called a specific genre which reflects a specific culture there are moral associations which cannot be divorced from the music.

So you believe it's the person who is able to associate a certain genre of music with sin that makes it sinful? So is this what you are saying?.... person A has a history of sinful living which incorporated a certain genre of music and person B doesn't. Person B can use that same genre of music for worship but person A could not. This is a very isolated example as there would never be a group of only person A or person B....I only use it for example to understand what you are saying.

Can the same be said for alcohol? There are obvious moral associations which cannot be divorced from alcohol (which is why we "drink but do not get drunk").

I don't think it has anything to do with individuals; hence persons A and B are irrelevant to the discussion.

2 Timothy 3:2-5 says, "For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." If this is the culture out of which specific genres of music have arisen then Christians should turn away from such music and not endorse these cultural forms. Take just one example -- "disobedient to parents." Specific musical styles have been marked as encouraging individual expression and showing disrespect to authority. Such a style in and of itself preaches immorality and should be rejected by those who are seeking to adorn the gospel of God their Saviour.

I am already on record as advocating a cultural abstinence position.

I see. Thank you.

I am aware I am not being paid much attention to . . .so I will repeat:

The core issue being discussed is dependance.

Music is not unlawful and alcohol is not unlawful. The problem is when people become dependant upon either, in order to function and be happy.

Many people depend daily upon music filling their consciousness, and many people depend upon drugs and/or alcohol to fill their consciousness, and many people are addicted to sex to fill their conscious hours of every day.

Are these dependancies to be allowed to affect church worship?

Respectfully considered, Friend. Thank You.

Admin Note:

I'm shutting this thread down in approximately 5 minutes. I believe its life expectancy has drawn to a close.

Then my example of person A and person B would apply bc that's not what I get from even secular music. Growing up I was taught that secular music had hidden messages luring kids to do satanic acts etc. I wasn't taught that it promoted "disobedience to parents" so I don't have that associate with secular music whereas you do. So again it's subjective. It sounds like what you're saying is that music is bad based off of personal sinful experience and not on the actual sinfulness of the music i.e. the lyrics actually promoting disobedience to parents. There are songs which are sinful but it's the words which make them so. A beat or tone isn't sinful whereas words can be.

Brother I find your consistency honorable. I do not currently hold to the cultural abstinence position and I am often very flustered by the inconsistency amongst those who hold said position.

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Bryan Riddle
1689 London Baptist Confession
Bethel Baptist Church Owasso, Oklahoma

Thank you. Although let me assure you that I have read your posts and I agree with you. I truly enjoy Christian rap and am greatly edified by it. However, I would be very uncomfortable about another person listening to Christian rap "just because" they were dependent on that style of music, and I don't think dependencies should dictate worship in any sense. My question you quoted was directed to Mr. Winzer in particular because his argumentation (a cultural abstinence position) is not necessarily what you are advocating here, if I am understanding you correctly. I apologize that you felt ignored.

All, when a Moderator or an Admin makes a decision to close a thread or otherwise moderate it, please don't take it personally (unless said Mod or Admin makes a personal statement about). The place to discuss Admin or Mod decisions is *NOT* in the thread. Just because an Admin or Mod closes a thread doesn't mean that someone has done something wrong. Thank you. Good night.