Folks, we already did this one to death

ON THIS THREAD

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Jonathan Hunt

Elder holding forth the word of life at:
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

This is really good stuff in light of my own transition by God's grace:
Introduction to Christianity via Oneness Pentecostalism---->A one and a half year stint in a sect of Islam----->Catholic High School---->Trinitarian Pentecostalism---->Doctrines of Grace as a Calvinistic Premil Dispensationalist----->Now moving towards Covenantalism as the Lord opens my eyes by His Grace to the beauty of the continuity of His Old and New Testaments.............

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DeJuan
Grace Fellowship Bible Church (Independent)
Culpeper, VA

Okay, I need some Biblical clarification here. WHAT does it take, from a mucial standard, for a certain form or style to be sinful?
Is 4/4 time, okay? What about 2/4 time? Too fast? Hmmm, 3/4 is waltz...and dancing is sinful....can't have that. Is the main beat to be on the down-beat or the up-beat? Or is no beat the holiest way to go?
How sinful is polka?
Did Satan create the electric guitar?

I'm so confused.

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Ralph
Pastor
Valera Baptist Church
Valera, Texas

No, of course not. However, if a new musical form is developed out of a largely debased counter-culture that revels in sex, drugs, and rebellion against authority, and this form feeds, perpetuates, and mostly continues to celebrate such things; then I think it's a legitimate question as to whether God's people should be partaking in it, especially in church. Even if they change the lyrics.

All I'm saying is that it's a valid issue, and rather than knee-jerk against it because you grew up with it and happen to like some of it, we ought to give it more careful consideration.

If this thread has established anything, it's that music has a very deep, almost visceral effect on people. Ironically enough, I think that goes some way toward proving the author's point.

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Louis DiBiase
Louisville, KY

Well, we will have to just disagree on this one. Personally I don't like the new stuff but I am not willing to slander a style of music and it's writers as this author has. And in my reading of it I believe he has done just that as I noted in my previous post.

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Norseman Moderator

R. Martin Snyder
1689er
http://www.puritanboard.com/blogs/puritancovenanter/

"Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation."
William Symington

Click to get:Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

And you believe which musical genres originated from such conditions?
*hint* At LEAST Hip-Hop did not.

DeJuan,

Of course musical styles get their influence from many sources. Unless one is going to write a dissertation on it, we have to make certain generalizations.

I have given it careful consideration. This is no knee-jerk reaction, and I did not grow up with it. The onus is not upon me to show how it's okay, but upon Masters et al. to show how it is biblically sinful. The burden of proof lies with those who call it sinful, worldly, and carnal in its very existence.
I haven't heard any music going on in this thread? Who here has denied that music affects people? I haven't. The problem is asserting that a certain kind of music (divorced from lyrics, sinful nostalgia, etc.) has universally the same negative affect on all people without exception. Music, Booze, etc. are all substances which can be misused, abused, etc. The problem is not with said substances but with the men who are engaging in and thereof.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Joshua, I have to agree and disagree with you. Yes, it is the depravity of the men/women who are listening, imbibing etc. but, we ALL have fallen short, there is none righteous no not one. Music types may not be intrinsically bad, but music styles please the flesh not the spirit. We are not to please ourselves but God. Yes we have been called unto liberty, but we are not to use liberty for an occasion to the flesh.

Even if you may not have, to use your words, "sinful nostalgia" about a certain music style, someone else in the audience most certainly does.

We are called to walk in the spirit and not the flesh: For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.

People who think they can have one foot in the world and one foot in Christ are deluded. This type of attitude is exactly what the article is speaking against. It is a lie from the pit that you can dabble with worldy things and not be touched. That you can mix worldy things with the holy and that's ok. Evil communications corrupt good manners. Evil communications describes most of what is out there in popular culture today.

What did Haggai ask the priests?
12 If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No.
13Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean.

The general equity of the clean and unclean, and the purity laws of Israel are that we are set apart, we are to be separate and unspotted by the world. We are to be holy as God is holy.

I am not saying this happens overnight but it should be our goal and it should be defended and expounded as the Sabbath is defended and expounded because it is right and true and it is scriptural.

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Traci
Lynnwood OPC
"I have taken all my good deeds, and all my bad deeds, and cast them through each other in a heap before the Lord, and fled from both, and betaken myself to the Lord Jesus Christ, and in him I have sweet peace."--David Dickson

Sorry, I didn't mean to impugn you or anyone personally, and I apologize if it came across that way. I'm sure that you have considered it and reached your own conclusion, and that's fine.

I disagree, though, with what seems to be your underlying premises. First, you didn't say that music doesn't affect people, but you seem to be making a significant distinction between the musical form itself and the lyrics and notalgia that surround it. I would say that musical form itself also affects mood and psychological state. It can make you happy, sad, upbeat, sentimental -- or angry, aggressive or disturbed. Second, like it or not nostalgia and social context are part and parcel of this type of music, so they are relevant to the discussion. Third, you're still clinging to this 100% "without exception" thing, and I don't think that's a necessary part of the criticism here.

I also second Traci's post.

Well, Many of us on the PB imbibe a few drinks ever now and again. Just because someone abuses themselves with something doesn't make it inherently sinful by itself. I even go to the local pub ever now and again as Luther did. I believe the distinctions you are making about mixing holy and unholy can be out of accord. The way most people talk is evil. So by your logic I guess I should just totally stop talking. After all Evil communications describes most of what is out there in popluar culture today. I think we will just have to disagree on this topic.

Good idea... I agree to disagree....

The general context of the article was worship and mixing worldy influences with worship and preaching and teaching. The RPW works two ways. It fences the way God is worshiped and it fences me and my conscience from being bound to worship God by the dictates of someone elses style.

I have no problem with things being rightly used. When you get into the flesh pleasing arena you have to be on your guard. Many things please our flesh through all five senses. These can all be, and in this sinful world almost always are, one way or another.

Yes, most of our own talk even is vain and evil but you are going to extremes. I said none of this happens overnight. It is a process of sanctification. The first step though is to call sin, sin. Our goal as Christians is to mortify the flesh and to feed and nourish the spirit. This is what we are aiming for. When you are aiming your goal is to hit the mark. We need to know what that mark is and we are told in the scriptures what it is. Holiness.

I think we all know how that is done, but the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

I think that you folks whom I respect greatly are not understanding what I'm saying. Masters has made a blanket condemnation of a type of music. In other words, it's inherently immoral. When he calls a type of music, mind you not a particular song, etc., but a genre of music notes arranged together in a certain fashion, when he calls them immoral he's making a statement that he is bound to prove biblically. He will be found wanting, because it doesn't exist.

Again, I say that music can be sinful for some persons who have sinful nostalgia attached to it, or if the lyrics are clearly anti-Christian, etc. But this does not mean, nor can it, that there is a certain style of musical notes arranged in a certain fashion, that are sinful. Yet, that's what Masters asserts without any biblical warrant whatsoever. Music does affect people, but doesn't affect each and every person in the same exact way. One may call a particular song or genre of music for themselves sinful, because it reminds them of past sins and has them developing a lust for that lifestyle again. One may find that a certain style of music affects them in a negative fashion, etc. But they may not say that affects everyone else in the same way. They may not say that the music is, in and of itself, immoral.

I am understanding you Josh. You are putting, I think, to fine a point on it though. I do believe that the world is fallen, and that includes music styles. If they were a thing, then maybe they would be excluded, but they are in the abstract, an idea, sprouted from the mind of sinful men. I don't believe you could say they are amoral.

a⋅mor⋅al  [ey-mawr-uhl, a-mawr-, ey-mor-, a-mor-]
–adjective
1. not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.
2. having no moral standards, restraints, or principles; unaware of or indifferent to questions of right or wrong: a completely amoral person.

Louis said
Neither do I, even if it isn't the mere arrangement of notes that could make it so.

Doesn't this go without saying? As a musician I'm overwhelmingly classical in background (though I keep off opera, for the reasons someone mentioned), and very ignorant of rock music, so correct me if I'm wrong.......but didn't I hear a rumour that the actual name "rock and roll" has a meaning, not the most savoury?

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JennyG
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Fife, Scotland

I also am not willing to call a Conference a Sabbath Worship as you seem to be implying the two are and as the article seems to equate. The article in general says that the music itself is drug induced which is what I have a problem with.

Rumors.

I am thinking more along the line of the principle in scripture that says what communion hath light with darkness? and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

We should connect God and his teachings with worldly things. We are to avoid all appearance of evil AND support our weaker brethren by not leading them astray.

As far a the drug induced comment, I think he is talking about the birth of rock and roll being during the sixties. It's not entirely inaccurate and even claimed by drug users themselves.

You're begging the question though as the contention is whether the type of music cited is inherently evil as the author and others purport. Stating that we should not have communion with the worldly in support of your view begs the question.

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Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

Well, I guess we are going to have to disagree on this Augusta. I just think that if you are adding me to something, you are adding a bit of salt to make it better, preserve it, and make it something that can be palatable. After all, I was told I am the salt of the earth. I like good music. Our opinions on what is good are going to be different. Sometimes preferences leave that to options, like the way we are inclined to appreciate one color over another.

I have already spoken to that a few times.

I'm not enough of a musician to know if the "noise" created by some of these modern genres is fit to be called music, but I'm enough of a Christian to know that such noise is so associated with degeneration that it is next to impossible to separate the noise from immoral overtones.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

So our brothers who are Reformed rappers aren't Christian enough to realize this?

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Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

I don't know them personally to be able to say what they realise and what they rationalise.

Okay.

Well, personally, it's a shame to hear that I'm not Christian enough to separate the noise from immoral overtones. Perhaps if I was Christian enough I could see how, despite Christ exalting lyrics, the Reformed rap music I listen to is worldly because of a pattern of beats and sounds.

Dear sir, I'm going to stop this post here because I greatly respect you and want to honor you as a father. But what you're implying here seriously pains me and not only because of its implications for me but also for many brothers and sisters in Christ.

That just seems silly. LOL. It implies that your brand of Christianity affords you a level of discernment not enjoyed by us less blessed who enjoy genres that you consider noise.

For you to continue down the path of reading "not Christian enough" into my words, even after I have qualified that I cannot make personal evaluations, that is a shame.

Romans 12:2 indicates the Christian life is a process of transformation. One would have to deny this process in order to arrive at the interpretation you have put upon my words.

The New Testament often invokes status terms like "the elect of God" or the "called of God" as a motive to duty without calling into question the status of those who are not consistently fulfilling their duty.

"Beats and sounds" is not the issue. The issue is sensationalism and human dependancy upon favored sensationalisms.

If Christians DEPEND upon the sensationalism of musical "beats and sounds," and begin to DEFEND the sensationalism of musical "beats and sounds", then something is terribly wrong.

"Dependancy" apart from faith in Jesus Christ = Idolatry.

Multitudes are dependant upon music of all kinds, which means multitudes are practicing idolatry.

Their music means too much to them . . .

Should these idolatries be brought into the sanctified churches of God?

NO!

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Ronda Rush
Church of the Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California


" . . .It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'" Matthew 4:4

I do not like Rap music. I do like the Gospel being preached. When the Apostle Paul heard that some people were preaching the Gospel simply trying to get him in more trouble with Rome what did the Apostle do? Did he get mad? No he rejoyced because the Gospel was being preached.

I do not like what many preachers teach, (premill dis-pens) but most of them are reaching people for Christ. Our Body, the Church is growing because people are hearing from the Bible. I Lord called me out of a Full Gospel Church and I know He did the same for many others. You witness to the people that God puts in your path the way He leads but be wary when judgeing how He is leading others.

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Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.

Thought I should pop in just long enough to correct this.

Joseph, if your local professor of music actually made such a sweeping statement, he would be incorrect. Hymnody has a very long history, and it cannot be denied that it is grounded in both the culture and theology of the church. Some of the earliest Western music developed in the Christian era used Trinitarian theology in constructing its meter and forum, and anyone familiar with the parallel progress of secular/sacred music from the era plainsong onward would be able to recognize this separation as historical fact.

Your local prof may just be uniformed, or he may have an agenda of his own. I received my Bachelor of Music (not a BA degree) Magna Cum Laude, and was a TA for the Theory, Composition, History, and Guitar & Lute profs, just so you know that I'm not speaking out of complete ignorance. I don't want what you repeated here to be taken as truth solely because it has some backing by a local (community college?) professor. It should not be taken as such, nor used to further the canard that has become more frequently repeated within the evangelical community that sacred music really just parroted the secular forms of its day. That fancy might be convenient for CCM artists who want to justify their lack of creativity, but it is not an historically accurate reconstruction!

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Adam J. Myer
Slated for the Jan. 10th Chaplains Basic Officer Leadership Course
Estacada Christian Church
Sandy, Oregon

Soli Deo Gloria

Well considering I spoke of myself, am I not capable of examining myself? For you to say that you are "enough of a Christian" to know such and such while others examine themselves and conclude otherwise, are you not saying that we are not "enough of a Christian" to come to the same conclusions? That's what it naturally implies to me. And that is in truly seeking to be charitable.



I was not speaking of individuals who are supposedly dependent on a music style but of the morality of the style itself. Should the idols of modern music be brought into the sanctified churches of God? Of course not. And neither should the idols of traditional music. There are idols on every side of this debate. The issue is that even well-intentioned people are attempting to unbiblically bind the conscience of brothers and sisters.

This argument is a popular one that has been the topic of many threads in different Christian forums. Seems like we never get anywhere as it seems to divide us. I for one feel we need to look at how anything done in a worship service that fails to bring glory to God, if it does fail then stop it (IMO).

I feel many in hear are fearful that this entertainment style will lead our youth away from Biblical preaching and teaching and not that the music itself is bad or harmful. I've experienced a solid biblical church that began with introducing heavy metal music on Wednesday nights and before we knew it we had preaching that was watered down to keep the unbelievers in their seats. My daughter (about 12 at that time) had never heard this kind of music. Now she (at 19) is not coming to church and listens to this kind of music in secular forms. I believe we need to be very careful when trying to bring the church along side the culture.

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Rick
Teacher/Apologist
Baptist
SE Missouri

I'm sure you are, but I have said nothing about you or any other individual.

Friend,

The "style" of the music causes dependency.

This reality must acknowledged amongst modern man.

Music acts as a drug to multitudes.

And a "drug" is the practice of witchcraft, which is idolatry, if not worse.



I don't think this is a matter of imposing legalism upon the sons of God or binding their consciences. It is more a matter of discerning who exist under the Covenant of Grace, while refusing the things of the world.

I consider dependance and apologetics of any kind, founded upon secular music, to be a legitmate means of discerning, who indeed live according to God's holiness, grace, and separation from worldly idols.



I hate to come across as OLD and UNPOPULAR!

But I will . . .

I didnt mean to thank you, but there you go.

I dont think that the heavy metal music was what caused the watered down messages. I would ask you to reconsider if the church was solid from the start.

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"I thank Thee that many of my prayers have been refused. I have asked amiss and do not have, I have prayed from lusts and been rejected, I have longed for Egypt and been given a wilderness".-Unknown

Julio, Amaya
Clifton, NewJersey
Reformed Baptist Church of North Bergen

Please don't get me wrong. I don't think it was the heavy metal music either. I think it was the leadership of the church trying to be seeker sensitive. It could have easily been classical music or country or drama. My struggle is that I want to be seeker sensitive but not to the point where we must change the proclamation of the word to keep the unbelievers happy. This isn't the goal of worship is it?

I ask this sincerely: do you have any studies or proof to show that the style of a rap song causes more dependency than classical music or another style? Also, would not this music be acceptable then in moderation, much like alcohol? This is where it primarily sounds like legalism. Why condemn it all when only too much is wrong?

Of course not.

I do not condemn music. I condemn human dependance upon music.

Anything, apart from the Word of God, that acts to alleviate human misery, will in the end prove to be false and thereby, produce and result in a practice of idolatry.