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that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15)

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Old 01-18-2006, 10:18 AM
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Liberal Wonderbread or Sanctimonious Matzoh? What does your church use?

OK, so the poll isn't that serious, but it would be interesting to see what types of breads are used in communion, specifically leavened or unleavened.

Recently Fred threw down the linguistic gauntlet in front of me regarding what type of bread the Lord used at the Last Supper. His question was:

"Seriously, what do you do with the clarity of the Greek difference between unleavened bread ( ἀζυμος ) and leavened bread ( ἀρτος ), in which the latter is always used of the Supper, even in the Supper account in Mt 26:26, Mark 14:22; and Luke 22:19 ?"

I had set about to absolutely crush him but realized all I needed to do was point out a single exception to his thesis and the whole thing would come crashing down like the proverbial house of cards...so...here it is:

The word "bread" appears in the English Bible roughly 271 times. In both the Old and New Testaments a variety of words appear to describe what we call bread but we will focus on the relevant ones.

In the Old Testament "bread" translates the Hebrew words lechem and matzoh. The LXX/New Testament corresponding words are artos and azumos respectively. Lechem/artos almost (but not quite!) always refers to leavened bread; matzoh/azumos almost (but not quite!) always refers to unleavened bread.

The argument for use of leavened bread in Communion appears to hinge upon the use of the Greek word artos in the Synoptic accounts of the Last Supper Fred referenced above. But is this a valid conclusion?

I'm going to say no (in a non-sanctimonious way ). Here's why: several OT verses in the LXX use artos/azumos interchangeably.

I offer the following as evidence:

Exo. 29:2--Moses is commanded to make bread without yeast. The Hebrew reads lechem/matzoth which the LXX translates artous/azumous. This would seem to indicate that the former term is a more general word for bread while the latter is more specifically referring to unleavened bread. On the face of it, this would seem to support Fred's conclusion, but let us read on.

In Exo. 29:23, and referring to the very same bread (which we know from context is unleavened) Moses calls it lechem and the LXX translates it arton!

Case closed.

OK, I'll continue. There are numerous other texts in which the terms are used interchangeably in both Greek and Hebrew (c.f. for instance Exo. 29:32, 34; Lev. 7:12). It seems then that they are synonyms that sometimes (but not always) imply something about the nature of the bread.

In other words, we cannot dogmatically say based on the Greek term used in the Synoptics whether or not the Lord instituted the Lord's Supper with leavened or unleavened bread.

We CAN, however, categorically say so based on historical, theological, and logical grounds that a). Jesus was celebrating the Passover, b). Passover meals ALWAYS involved the use unleavened bread, ergo Jesus must have used unleavened bread.

The question remaims whether or not his example is binding in the sacrament...
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Old 01-18-2006, 12:16 PM
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Interesting...it will be interesting to see a response as well...
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:58 PM
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Don't have time for a full response here. But quickly:

1. All these words also mean "food" in more contexts than the ones cited by Kevin. Does that mean that we can substitute any kind of "food"? Of course not. We look at the ordinary, most common meaning of the word. Even in the contexts that Kevin cites, artos is used specifically to distinguish from ordinary unleavened bread - to refer to a "loaf" or whole cake. Since artos is also the word for "cake" of bread, it makes perfect sense that the LXX would use the word. There is no other word for "cake" or loaf.

2. There is no conclusive evidence that the Last Supper was indeed the Passover meal which involved partaking of unleavened bread. There were several Passover "meals" and they did not all involve unleavened bread necessarily.
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:44 PM
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As part of the preparation for the Feast on UNLEAVENED BREAD, which followed Passover for 7 days, all yeast was removed from the house before the Passover meal was ever even prepared.

Whatever the words mean, there was no leaven in the house to be used for making a loaf of bread. It was, of necessity then, unleavened.

As the Supper is a fulfillment of the Passover Feast, and Jesus was the SPOTLESS and SINLESS Lamb of God, then why would we need to argue to include leaven? Leaven was used often to represent sin, and Jesus in His sacrifice was sinless.

I think the use of unleavened bread and wine (which is also unleavened - by the fermenation process) not only fulfills the intent of the Passoever, but presents an amazing picture for us of Christ, our perfect sacrifice.

Phillip

PS - irrelevant, but to make a funny point, the only time I ever saw leavened bread used in a communion service I was about 12 years old and the person at the church I was visiting who administered the Supper was dressed as a CLOWN!

NO LEAVEN, NO CLOWNS!!
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by fredtgreco
We look at the ordinary, most common meaning of the word.
You can't really mean that. You have to give other means at least the opportunity to be applicable.
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:55 PM
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Saltine Crackers. They are unleavened.
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:01 PM
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If only a twinkie and a coke were available, that would do........at present, we use matzo.

[Edited on 1-18-2006 by Scott Bushey]
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:08 PM
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William Sprague on an argument against those opposed to using wine in the Lord's supper, comments on this toward the end of his article linked below.
http://www.naphtali.com/overwise.htm
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorway
...the only time I ever saw leavened bread used in a communion service I was about 12 years old and the person at the church I was visiting who administered the Supper was dressed as a CLOWN!

NO LEAVEN, NO CLOWNS!!
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:57 PM
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We have this soft, chewy, sourdough flavored bread. It is really good and tasty.
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:21 PM
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gets stuck in your teeth tho, which is ucky.
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter
gets stuck in your teeth tho, which is ucky.
Hmm.. weird. Maybe its an RP recipe?
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:41 PM
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maybe. I have the suspicion its unleavened as its almost as flat as a pancake.
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter
maybe. I have the suspicion its unleavened as its almost as flat as a pancake.
Sure is tasty, though... But it does get stuck in my teeth. Good thing I have Welch's to wash it down.
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Don't have time for a full response here. But quickly:

1. All these words also mean "food" in more contexts than the ones cited by Kevin. Does that mean that we can substitute any kind of "food"? Of course not. We look at the ordinary, most common meaning of the word. Even in the contexts that Kevin cites, artos is used specifically to distinguish from ordinary unleavened bread - to refer to a "loaf" or whole cake. Since artos is also the word for "cake" of bread, it makes perfect sense that the LXX would use the word. There is no other word for "cake" or loaf.

2. There is no conclusive evidence that the Last Supper was indeed the Passover meal which involved partaking of unleavened bread. There were several Passover "meals" and they did not all involve unleavened bread necessarily.
Classic denial in the face of overwhelming defeat. What are you gonna do when Madam Hillary makes the White House? :P
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
William Sprague on an argument against those opposed to using wine in the Lord's supper, comments on this toward the end of his article linked below.
http://www.naphtali.com/overwise.htm
Off topic, but thank you!
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:23 AM
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Some kind of rounded Panera style bread (ie, not wonder bread...homemade).
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kevin.carroll
Quote:
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
William Sprague on an argument against those opposed to using wine in the Lord's supper, comments on this toward the end of his article linked below.
http://www.naphtali.com/overwise.htm
Off topic, but thank you!
?How so? Sprague, albeit briefly, references one argument for common bread as opposed to insisting on unleavened bread. It may not be a convincing argument to some, but it is not off topic. He also addresses some of the other issues involved in any discussion of what is essential (elemental) and what is circumstancial to the ordinance.
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:13 AM
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I will add, the poll IMO should be 1. Has to be unleavened; or 2. Any bread (including unleavened) common to the culture of the day, which is Sprague's position.
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by fredtgreco
2. There is no conclusive evidence that the Last Supper was indeed the Passover meal which involved partaking of unleavened bread. There were several Passover "meals" and they did not all involve unleavened bread necessarily.
Really? Name one. I'm not sure Jesus was a Reformed Jew, munching on chicken.

You also need to look at Luke 22:15. Looks pretty conclusive to me.

[Edited on 1-20-2006 by kevin.carroll]
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
I will add, the poll IMO should be 1. Has to be unleavened; or 2. Any bread (including unleavened) common to the culture of the day, which is Sprague's position.
WWJE?

My comment on off topic was that it was about wine. My apologies. I did not read the post.
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Old 01-21-2006, 02:00 PM
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Sourdough.

And I laugh at the people who get all upset that we use grape juice, but then don't care what sort of bread we use . . . but I'm staying out of that argument!
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Old 01-21-2006, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Puddleglum
Sourdough.

And I laugh at the people who get all upset that we use grape juice, but then don't care what sort of bread we use . . . but I'm staying out of that argument!
That's a good point that occurred to me as well.