Jdg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
Jdg 4:5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.
Jdg 4:6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Jdg 4:7 And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.
Jdg 4:8 And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.
Jdg 4:9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.
Jdg 4:10 And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.
Jdg 4:11 Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh.
Jdg 4:12 And they shewed Sisera that Barak the son of Abinoam was gone up to mount Tabor.
Jdg 4:13 And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon.
Jdg 4:14 And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.
Jdg 4:15 And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet.
Jdg 4:16 But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.
Jdg 4:17 Howbeit Sisera fled away on his feet to the tent of Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite: for there was peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite.
Jdg 4:18 And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle.
Jdg 4:19 And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him.
Jdg 4:20 Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No.
Jdg 4:21 Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.
Jdg 4:22 And, behold, as Barak pursued Sisera, Jael came out to meet him, and said unto him, Come, and I will shew thee the man whom thou seekest. And when he came into her tent, behold, Sisera lay dead, and the nail was in his temples.
Jdg 4:23 So God subdued on that day Jabin the king of Canaan before the children of Israel.
Jdg 4:24 And the hand of the children of Israel prospered, and prevailed against Jabin the king of Canaan, until they had destroyed Jabin king of Canaan.


How does one reconcile the idea that God would not call a woman to lead men and the example of Deborah.

Cmon, don't be scared.....what do you think?

[Edited on 4-2-2004 by Scott Bushey]

__________________
Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Where does the text imply that she was called by God?

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Attending CCRPC, Member of TRBC
Reformers & Puritans -lllll- Puritan Pub
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

:scared:


If God elects I would say I dont have a problem with it,but possibly this was used in a rare circumstance.

blade

__________________
Nathan Olaf Brandal
First Baptist Church of Kirkland

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"
GEORGE WHITEFIELD TO JOHN WESLEY

My Blog

[quote:0141f065e3][i:0141f065e3]Originally posted by joshua[/i:0141f065e3]
Where does the text imply that she was called by God? [/quote:0141f065e3]

Joshua,

1) Deboarah was "a prophetess"
2) In the text, she echo's one of the prophecies she has rec'd:
"Jdg 4:6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?"



Here is one reputable commentary:
http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC07004.HTM

Actually Scott she was a co-leader. She was only thrust into the position because Barak refused to be a man and step up. But she didn't run the army, Barak did.

__________________
Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

Who said women cannot lead men?

Deborah was not a priest, nor was she an elder. She was a judge and she prophesied. Did you get that? She was judging all of Israel...just like Samson, Gideon, Samuel, Eli, and the other judges. There were 14 total and they were military and civil leaders in a theocracy (with the absence of a king).

So why would we think this is an exception to "women cannot rule men" when there is no such rule [i:a376ac5ee1]except[/i:a376ac5ee1] for in the functioning leadership of the Church?

First someone would have to establish this rule and explain why it is women cannot rule men. Then they would have to discount Deborah and several Queens that ruled Israel and Judah. Then they would have to explain why being a judge and prophesying was equal to the position of an elder in the church. And no one can make that case!

Phillip

[Edited on 4-2-04 by pastorway]

__________________
Pastor Phillip M. Way
[url=http://www.timeintheword.org][color=blue] Maranatha Community Church of Central Texas[/color][/url]
A Reformed Baptist Congregation and Member Church of the
Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals [url=http://www.firefellowship.org][color=red](FIRE)[/color][/url]

Blogging at: [url=http://pastorway.blogspot.com/][color=blue][i]pastorway[/i][/color][/url]
Sermons Online at: [url=http://www.sermonaudio.com/timeintheword][color=blue]TIME in the Word Ministries[/color][/url]

When all souls are saved and all mourners comforted we may venture to discuss recondite theories, but not while graveyards are filling with those who know not God. -- CH Spurgeon

[b]The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 18:27[/b]

There are woman at the city church who prophesi:jaw:

Phillip,
Agreed. Thanks for the thorough exposit.

Patrick,
You write:
"But she didn't run the army, Barak did."

Notice how Barak berates himself:

"Jdg 4:8 And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. "

Technically Barak was leader of the army, however look at the cost:

"Jdg 4:9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. "

The Lord delivers Sisera into "the hands of a woman". deborah gets the victory, not Barak. Barak, like Deborah's husband is weak. He whimpers, "I will go if you go..........

[Edited on 4-2-2004 by Scott Bushey]

Except that Israel was both a CHURCH and a STATE.

Your answer is too easy.

__________________
Misery induces despair, pride induces presumption. The Incarnation shows man the
greatness of his misery by the greatness of the remedy which he required.
~ Pascal, Pensees 526

Now Now.....it was not structured nor did it function like a New Testament Church since Pentecost! IT was a theocratic nation/state and the judges were civil authorities.

Phillip

I think there is an element to this that is showing that a woman had to step up because the men weren't doing their job too. Sort of a rebuke. Just a thought

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

Those few instances in the Bible (assuming they have divine sanction) where women are in a position of authority are the exception not the rule. It is especially clear that female rulers are extraordinary when they are also prophetesses (an extraordinary office). We are to heed whatever vessel God choses to speak through by immediate revelation, even if it is a donkey (and I think women make better rulers than donkeys). Women were created to be in subjection not to rule. It seems arbitrary to say they can rule every where except the church. Women are to be in subjection to men in the family, in the church and, by the same principle, in the state. Though, if she rules in accordance with the laws of God and the nation she is still the minister of God and we owe her our obedience even if it is not the most favorable situation. But if she is a tyrant that's one more reason to do to her as the people did to Athaliah! BTW I think the misdeeds of all the Jezebels out weigh the good deeds of the Deborahs?

__________________
*Peter Gray* Elkins Park RPCNA

"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. " Mk 9:24
"The greatest thing we can desire, next to the glory of God, is our own salvation; and the sweetest thing we can desire is the assurance of our salvation. In this life we cannot get higher than to be assured of that which in the next life is to be enjoyed. All saints shall enjoy a heaven when they leave this earth; some saints enjoy a heaven while they are here on earth." Joseph Caryl

Peter,

Hmm... does that logic apply to men as well? (of the Jezabels outweighing the Deborahs)

[Edited on 4-2-2004 by Galahad]

__________________
Jeffrey Brannen
Trinity Grace (PCA)
Rogers/Bentonville, AR

[quote:7bfa49a75d][i:7bfa49a75d]Originally posted by Galahad[/i:7bfa49a75d]
Peter,

Hmm... does that logic apply to men as well? (of the Jezabels outweighing the Deborahs)

[Edited on 4-2-2004 by Galahad] [/quote:7bfa49a75d]

I get your unstated conclusion And I anticipated someone would make that point. That wasn't intended to be a very forceful premise but seriously it seems when women assume power they do far worse than men. (And for a reason, its not their place) Don't you agree?

[Edited on 4-2-2004 by Peter]

Hogwash. The submission of a woman is to "her own husband", not to every man on the planet. And both men and women are to submit to leadership in the church and the government.

The Bible NOWHERE forbids women from governing.

The Bible does not teach that all women are to be submissive to all men! In fact, in the NT it is quite clear that while there is a distinct role and function within mariage and the church, other than that, there is no male or female in Christ! We are all equal. Indeed, the only subordination is in function. So while a wife is to be submissive to her own husband that does not make her inferior in any way.

God did not establish a system whereby all men "outrank" all women.

And Deborah was not chosen to judge because of a weak husband. God appointed her as a Judge, just as He did all of the Judges of Israel.

Phillip

This is an honest question.
What is hogwash ?

hogwash ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hogwosh, -wsh, hg-)
n.
Worthless, false, or ridiculous speech or writing; [b:4f3f82a778]nonsense[/b:4f3f82a778].
Garbage fed to hogs; swill.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, (c) 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


[Edited on 4-2-2004 by webmaster]

[by pastorway - hogwash is a term for [i:4f3f82a778]nonsense[/i:4f3f82a778] and is not meant in any way to be profane or to refer to anything profane.]

[Edited on 4-2-2004 by pastorway]

Peter,

I agree with PastorWay - I don't think Scripture teaches a general rule of submission for women. As I've heard it stated, a woman has two men that she is commanded in Scripture to submit to - her father and her husband. No one else is mentioned.

I think the reason women are excluded from offices within the Church (and by this I mean Elder and Deacon) is because of what the Church is. Ephesians 5 speaks to this parallel structure of the relationship between the wife and husband and the Church and Christ.

I do not think it has anything to do with greater innate corruptability or less qualifications for leadership - in fact, some of the best leaders I know are women (my mom included).

Also, if we say that Deborah stepped forward because her husband and the leadership was weak, then we present a perfect argument for those progressive elements within our own churches. Are we failures as leaders (men)? Yes, so much of the time we are not forward when we need to be or we rush into things that need to be waited on. If a woman's qualifications for leadership is the failure of the men around her to lead, then you might as well join the PCUSA or the UMC - that is precisely their argument. And, as one female friend who is pursuing ordination within the UMC said, "Well, since men have screwed it up so badly, now it's time to do it right."

Why was Deborah in charge? Two reasons I can think of off the top of my head - (1) God chose her and that should satisfy any of our objections (2) God uses the weak to confound the strong.

How does that speak to women in our churches? Should they be able to pursue their "call to ministry" by ordination? <grins>

Ahh, Scott, what a can of sticky worms. <chuckles>

[quote:394b2ea01a][i:394b2ea01a]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:394b2ea01a]
Hogwash. The submission of a woman is to "her own husband", not to every man on the planet. And both men and women are to submit to leadership in the church and the government.

The Bible NOWHERE forbids women from governing.

The Bible does not teach that all women are to be submissive to all men! In fact, in the NT it is quite clear that while there is a distinct role and function within mariage and the church, other than that, there is no male or female in Christ! We are all equal. Indeed, the only subordination is in function. So while a wife is to be submissive to her own husband that does not make her inferior in any way.

God did not establish a system whereby all men "outrank" all women.

And Deborah was not chosen to judge because of a weak husband. God appointed her as a Judge, just as He did all of the Judges of Israel.

Phillip [/quote:394b2ea01a]

An excellent post, Pastor Way!

__________________
Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

I believe in the headship principle; and that if it is the norm for the church, then it should be the norm for society as well. But I am also convinced that men and women are equal in dignity.

In dealing with Deborah and other women leaders of God's people, it is reasonable to ask what we would think if no woman had ever been given a post of leadership? Would we not think less of them for it? Where would we get the idea of equality of the sexes?

God has not broken His rule by letting a woman lead His people. The place of leadership belongs to the man; but it is better to have a faithful woman than an unfaithful man. What comes first is that the leader has to be one who is going to lead in a manner that serves God. It is not that a woman cannot do that. She most certainly can. But she ought not to take away a man's position when there are men to take it up as they ought.

God has also given the reins of leadership to children, over picking some woman or man to do it. He did so to keep His promises and priorities. It is His prerogative to do so. It neither breaks the principle of headship, nor places woman above man when God deals with His people in this way.

__________________
JohnV :detective:

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

I realize what I'm saying is an anathema to the contemporary culture and people can be very emotional when attacking it, nonetheless I am convinced of its truth.

Pastor Way, I don't think every woman should be in submission to every man on the planet. All I'm saying is that it is a characteristic of woman's being to be led not to lead. 'No difference between male and female' refers to their judicial standing. Indeed, women are not inferior. Woman was made as a helpmeet, created to complete man in his role of exercising dominion, each designed to fulfill a specific function. Governing is not the function of women.

Of course there are some women capable of it but it is a danger to society to make such exceptions. It was the undermining of this principle that directly led to the usurpation of man's leadership in the church and family.

It is very arbitrary to say women are to submit in the family and the church but no where else.

[Edited on 4-2-2004 by pastorway]

I agree with Peter here. I think unless one is willing to read Calvin ([i:d74dc3f267]Men and Women in the Church[/i:d74dc3f267]) and Knox ([i:d74dc3f267]The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regimen of Women[/i:d74dc3f267]on this issue, one has not seen the most effective biblical arguments.

Further, one does not need to be a theonomist to say that the civil magistrate has at least some role in the furtherance of God's law. The magistrate is related to (if not above) the minister.

Finally, in Biblical times and terminology, a woman was never outside of the authority of a man - if not her husband, then her father. If both were dead (take for example Naomi and Ruth) it was a cause of great distress and a reason to look for a male head (i.e. the kinsman redeemer) not a reason to be free of authority.

__________________
Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

Amen Peter and Fred.

Fred,

Where would one find those particular works of Calvin and Knox you just mentioned above?

__________________
Brent Hebert
Member of a Southern Baptist Congregation
Lafayette, LA

The curse affects the relationship between husband and wife. The man who is created to rule acts like a despot and the woman who was created to help now finds that her "desire is for her husband", meaning that she desires to control him instead of yield and submit her will to his.

This is within the context of marriage. It is not in the context of all relationships with the opposite sex. In tempting Eve, the d.evil went right to the heart of hte family as God had designed it. When Eve acted outside her husbands authority, and when he failed to protect her and then sinned himself, S.atan had struck a blow against the marriage relationship - the foundation of all of human life!

[i:87b65f9d73]Submission[/i:87b65f9d73] that is specific for women is always in the context of her marriage as a wife submitting to her own husband (Eph 5:22-24; Col 3:18; 1 Peter 3:1-6)! Any other mention of submission in the Bible is submission for men and women in instances where [i:87b65f9d73]everyone[/i:87b65f9d73] whether male or female are to submit. They are to submit to each other (Eph 5:21), church leaders (Heb 13:17), employers (male and female slaves in the text - 1 Peter 2:18-25), and to government (1 Peter 2:13-17).

Nowhere in the Scripture are we told that a woman is forbidden to have civil authority over a man. Chapter and Verse?

And Deborah is the perfect example. She was a judge of Israel. The Judges were called and appointed by God for a task in civil leadership. The text in the Book of Judges NOWHERE states that she was an exception or that she was stepping up to fill in where a man had failed. This is added to the story because we have all believed that it is ungodly for a woman to rule a man in any arena! It is chauvanism!

Some ask about Barak and his apparent "weakness", but we need to understand that it was not unusual for some judges to judge simultaneously - Eli and Samuel, Deborah and Barak, etc. So it is not an anomoly or exception that finds Barak and Deborah judging at the same time.

So Calvin and Knox aside, it cannot be demonstarted from clear Scripture that Deborah was an exception or that women cannot rule over men in civil matters.

Phillip

[Edited on 4-3-04 by pastorway]