Thread: i went to a 'wee free' while on holiday!

Ok so the puritanboard has corrupted me beyond measure! lol

Yep, while on hol I found myself in a wee free (of the 'continuing' variety) one 'sabbath' morning. Psalms only, stand to sing, sit to pray and get preached to for almost an hour! Little did they know that my previous church was a chord bashing, drum banging, happy clappy, happy hopping, tongue talking, pentecostal church

How did I find?

1) I enjoyed hearing the congregation sing the psalms- good to have God's word sung to you

2) The preaching was 1) biblical 2) gospel centred 3) fiery

3) The people seemed nice

Down side?

Culturally it seems too far removed. Also, the church is in a rural area and it seems they do not have a good reputation with the non believers in the community. Sadly, it seems, not for their 'godly witness' and faithful 'gospel stand'. It seems their religious and hypicritical attitudes/behaviousr keep the locals away. Or so they say. Perhaps this is mis judgement from fallen rebels, but perhaps it is also true?

What do the unbelievers see when they think of this reformed church? A church which is 1) divided 2) very harsh 3) hypocritical. So the locals informed me. ;(

That is to bad

Wee free? Please explain.

Rich Koster;

Wee free? Please explain.

Looking at the description of his church...I'd say it has to do with that..

1) I enjoyed hearing the congregation sing the psalms- good to have God's word sung to you

Hmm, sung to you? We should be singing to God..

Culturally it seems too far removed.

How so? And is that really a bad thing?

Also, the church is in a rural area and it seems they do not have a good reputation with the non believers in the community. Sadly, it seems, not for their 'godly witness' and faithful 'gospel stand'. It seems their religious and hypicritical attitudes/behaviousr keep the locals away. Or so they say. Perhaps this is mis judgement from fallen rebels, but perhaps it is also true?

What do the unbelievers see when they think of this reformed church? A church which is 1) divided 2) very harsh 3) hypocritical. So the locals informed me. ;(

Do the people in the church say this or the others who don't go to church there?

If it's the church members, maybe speak to some of those who live in the town who don't go to church there and see what they really say??

Dear John,

I'm so very sad to read your OP. I truly hope that what you heard was a misrepresentation of the Wee Frees [Continuing] from those with whom you spoke.

As apparently the only representative of the American Wee Frees [Cont.] who posts regularly here, I would just like you to know that here, we're attempting, with the Lord's grace and in His strength, to reach out to our surrounding communities. The very last things that anyone of us would want to be characterized as is hypocritical or harsh. We're Americans: we're sometimes loud; we may be outspoken and brash, but we are warm-blooded Christians.

Our Presbytery of the United States holds a conference every August in the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia at which 150-180 people, from approximately 10 different denominations, are very welcome and are in attendance. We ourselves attended the 2007 conference and had a great and blessed time at it. American Wee Frees [Cont.] certainly are not unwelcoming! We're the farthest thing from it.

Margaret

Originally Posted by Jon 316

What do the unbelievers see when they think of this reformed church? A church which is 1) divided 2) very harsh 3) hypocritical. So the locals informed me. ;(

"And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live."

An unbeliever does not a good judge make!

Way to go Jon! Would a Gaelic service have counted as speaking in tongues?
I am glad you benefited from the service. I had no idea that in the FC(Continuing) they stood to sing and sat for prayer. Well, everyday's a schoolday....
I am assuming that you were somewhere in the West- mainland or island. But really, the best time of year is summer. As someone who is from the rural west Highlands and the Free Church of Scotland I can relate to what you say about how the church is perceived by the non believing community. Sad but true, that often times (not saying it was true in this case) the church gives more offense than the offense of the gospel. In small villages nothing is secret and as they say, still waters run deep. However, there is certainly a very strong anti Christian element in these small communities. There are many reasons for this, but of course, primarily these people are not in Christ. Part of their rebellion against Him is their distaste for the church. However, often times even the most ardent unbeliever will grudgingly admit that there are "good" people who go to the church- of whatever denomination.
Another factor in the dislike of the FCC is that although, these people may not be Christians, they may attend or give some sort of adherence to another denomination.
However, you set up a Baptist church or independent Christian fellowship in one of these rural areas and the distaste for the presbyterian churches will melt away in comparison to the suspicion in which the new church/fellowship is greeted with.
It's probably wiser that I don't get into a discussion on the multiplicity of churches in small Highland villages, except to say that yes non believers do notice the fragmented nature of Christ's church.
There does seem to be a disconnect between the culture and the church. Particularly more so in the continued modernization of the culture. To more and more people the church seems austere and a product of a bygone age. More and more Christians are aware of this and churches are trying hard to elevate their profile in the community, yet it is an uphill struggle.
This is an area of the country that has a glorious Christian history and yet today though the gospel is preached relatively few will hear it. May it please our God to send forth His Spirit into this precious corner of His vineyard.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

wee free (of the 'continuing' variety) one 'sabbath' morning. Psalms only, stand to sing, sit to pray and get preached to for almost an hour! Little did they know that my previous church was a chord bashing, drum banging, happy clappy, happy hopping, tongue talking, pentecostal church

How did I find?

1) I enjoyed hearing the congregation sing the psalms- good to have God's word sung to you

2) The preaching was 1) biblical 2) gospel centred 3) fiery

3) The people seemed nice

Down side?

Culturally it seems too far removed. (

Culture is insignificant. A Christian can worship in any culture he goes to.

Sounds great to me. I encourage you to find one nearby and join.

Or move to near one.

Dear Jon,

May I just say how interesting I found your thoughts, you seem to be saying ALL within the church is biblical. I am personally within the other "wee free" as unbelievers love to call us which is generally not a positive view. However what I will say is from personal experience every believer I've met from the continuing has been full of a zeal for Christ and nothing but encouraging to other believers. I shall continue to pray God's blessing upon them as I do for all who hold dear to the truth of the gospel.

Originally Posted by 21st Century Calvinist

Way to go Jon! Would a Gaelic service have counted as speaking in tongues?
I am glad you benefited from the service. I had no idea that in the FC(Continuing) they stood to sing and sat for prayer. Well, everyday's a schoolday....
I am assuming that you were somewhere in the West- mainland or island. But really, the best time of year is summer. As someone who is from the rural west Highlands and the Free Church of Scotland I can relate to what you say about how the church is perceived by the non believing community. Sad but true, that often times (not saying it was true in this case) the church gives more offense than the offense of the gospel. In small villages nothing is secret and as they say, still waters run deep. However, there is certainly a very strong anti Christian element in these small communities. There are many reasons for this, but of course, primarily these people are not in Christ. Part of their rebellion against Him is their distaste for the church. However, often times even the most ardent unbeliever will grudgingly admit that there are "good" people who go to the church- of whatever denomination.
Another factor in the dislike of the FCC is that although, these people may not be Christians, they may attend or give some sort of adherence to another denomination.
However, you set up a Baptist church or independent Christian fellowship in one of these rural areas and the distaste for the presbyterian churches will melt away in comparison to the suspicion in which the new church/fellowship is greeted with.
It's probably wiser that I don't get into a discussion on the multiplicity of churches in small Highland villages, except to say that yes non believers do notice the fragmented nature of Christ's church.
There does seem to be a disconnect between the culture and the church. Particularly more so in the continued modernization of the culture. To more and more people the church seems austere and a product of a bygone age. More and more Christians are aware of this and churches are trying hard to elevate their profile in the community, yet it is an uphill struggle.
This is an area of the country that has a glorious Christian history and yet today though the gospel is preached relatively few will hear it. May it please our God to send forth His Spirit into this precious corner of His vineyard.

Sounds much like what Samuel Rutherford had to deal with in his first charge.

Originally Posted by 21st Century Calvinist

Way to go Jon! Would a Gaelic service have counted as speaking in tongues?
I am glad you benefited from the service. I had no idea that in the FC(Continuing) they stood to sing and sat for prayer. Well, everyday's a schoolday....
I am assuming that you were somewhere in the West- mainland or island. But really, the best time of year is summer. As someone who is from the rural west Highlands and the Free Church of Scotland I can relate to what you say about how the church is perceived by the non believing community. Sad but true, that often times (not saying it was true in this case) the church gives more offense than the offense of the gospel. In small villages nothing is secret and as they say, still waters run deep. However, there is certainly a very strong anti Christian element in these small communities. There are many reasons for this, but of course, primarily these people are not in Christ. Part of their rebellion against Him is their distaste for the church. However, often times even the most ardent unbeliever will grudgingly admit that there are "good" people who go to the church- of whatever denomination.
Another factor in the dislike of the FCC is that although, these people may not be Christians, they may attend or give some sort of adherence to another denomination.
However, you set up a Baptist church or independent Christian fellowship in one of these rural areas and the distaste for the presbyterian churches will melt away in comparison to the suspicion in which the new church/fellowship is greeted with.
It's probably wiser that I don't get into a discussion on the multiplicity of churches in small Highland villages, except to say that yes non believers do notice the fragmented nature of Christ's church.
There does seem to be a disconnect between the culture and the church. Particularly more so in the continued modernization of the culture. To more and more people the church seems austere and a product of a bygone age. More and more Christians are aware of this and churches are trying hard to elevate their profile in the community, yet it is an uphill struggle.
This is an area of the country that has a glorious Christian history and yet today though the gospel is preached relatively few will hear it. May it please our God to send forth His Spirit into this precious corner of His vineyard.

Great insights!

Yes, West Coast of Scotland. Where are you from?

"And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live."

An unbeliever does not a good judge make!

This is a tremendously arrogant statement! Even if what the locals said, was misjudgement, this type of thinking is so wrong. Just because people are not Christians does not mean they are blind and stupid. Just because people are Christians and are rejected by the heathen does not mean they are being mistreated on account of the 'faith'. Many times Christians are mistreated and judged by the world because the world sees through their religious hypocracy and foolishness.

Jesus said that the love and unity of the brethren would speak to the world, if the church does not reflect that love and unity, the world is not stupid it will see it and it will simply reinforce the hardness of their hearts.

Rom 2:17 Indeed[b] you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,”[c]

One example: A woman ( a non believer) I spoke to phoned the church inorder to contact a minister regarding conducting a funeral for a woman who had just died who had previous free church connection. The minister the woman wanted had been a part of the split (but had not joined the continuing element) the minister she spoke to on the phone simply said 'I cannot put you in touch with him or help you because I do not talk to that man because we have split'. Now, what sort of message does that send to a non believer who is contacting a church for help on behalf of a friend who has just died? How many cans of worms did the ministers response open?

This was only one example...

Another example is, one of the members owms/runs a hotel/restaurant etc. Any tips that are given by the customers are not actually given to the staff, they are kept by the hotel owner. One of the key ways hotel staff are compensated for long hours and low income is usually in the tips. Thus the Reformed Christian has a reputation for greed, injustice and lack of compassion.

Another example: I asked one of the members why the free church had split he wasted no time in telling me that a proffessor in the free church had been having innapropriate relationships with women members of his congregation. Even though it went to court and he was cleared, this was because the evidence had apparantly been 'burned'.

These are only some examples...

I dont think all of this comes down to blind sinners making misrepresentations to salve their own consciences.

At the risk of this thread becoming unproductive and unfruitful... perhaps the question that should underpin this discussion is

'Is the rejection of our church by the surrounding community purely on account of our faithfulness to Christ or have we added offense to the gospel in some way?'

There are wee frees and there are wee frees; it is cetainly true that some within the denomination cause offence that as nothing to do with the gospel (but this is equally true in other denominations) I recall visiting a wee free church in Inverness that made such a positive impact on me but I am also aware that some wee frees have lost touch with reality. Jim Packer (Laid Back Religion) quotes someone (whose name I have forgotten) "Traditionism is the dead religion of the living and traditionalism is the living religion of the dead" which seems to sum up some wee free congregations. And indeed other legalistic type denominations.

I find within the Highlands, church attendance maybe relatively higher than other parts of the UK but it is the "non-Christian Calvinist" who often occupies the pews. The dry traditional Calvinist rather then the real Calvinist. (Those familiar wth Ian Rankin's John Rebus would see the pagan Calvinist in Rebus)

The free church has a proud heritage but no church can rest on its past.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

This is a tremendously arrogant statement!

You need to abstain from inflammatory language on this board. You mightn't like the statement, but there is nothing in the words which warrants the adjective you have chosen to employ.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

Many times Christians are mistreated and judged by the world because the world sees through their religious hypocracy and foolishness.

The way Christians do is preferable to the way non-Christians don't. Christians are inconsistent, but a non Christian criticising an individual for not being a consistent Christian is the height of hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

One example:

This was only one example...

Another example is

Another example:

These are only some examples...

Charity covers a multitude of such examples.

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Originally Posted by Jon 316

This is a tremendously arrogant statement!

You need to abstain from inflammatory language on this board. You mightn't like the statement, but there is nothing in the words which warrants the adjective you have chosen to employ.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

Many times Christians are mistreated and judged by the world because the world sees through their religious hypocracy and foolishness.

The way Christians do is preferable to the way non-Christians don't. Christians are inconsistent, but a non Christian criticising an individual for not being a consistent Christian is the height of hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

One example:

This was only one example...

Another example is

Another example:

These are only some examples...

Charity covers a multitude of such examples.

Your unyielding defence of the church in question, justification of behaviours and attitudes, and contempt for the observations of non Christians is worrying. I think you could perhaps learn from those who have commented on this thread who at least seem to understand and sympathise with the social and religious context of the free churches and the highlands.

Without stepping on any toes and in the interest of Christian fellowship, may I suggest that a book called "When Justice Failed in Church and State" by Iain Murray of Banner of Truth and Murdoch Murchison provides a fair, as far as I know, summary of the split in the Free Church of Scotland which led to the birth of the Free Church [Continuing]? The book is a little hard to come by, but I know of sources for it.

Margaret

Originally Posted by Jon 316

Your unyielding defence of the church in question, justification of behaviours and attitudes, and contempt for the observations of non Christians is worrying. I think you could perhaps learn from those who have commented on this thread who at least seem to understand and sympathise with the social and religious context of the free churches and the highlands.

I haven't made any attempt to defend the church in question, only to ensure that charitable judgement is exercised towards fellow Christians. No Christian church would escape unspotted from the kind of judgementalism displayed in this thread. "For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment."

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Originally Posted by Jon 316

Your unyielding defence of the church in question, justification of behaviours and attitudes, and contempt for the observations of non Christians is worrying. I think you could perhaps learn from those who have commented on this thread who at least seem to understand and sympathise with the social and religious context of the free churches and the highlands.

I haven't made any attempt to defend the church in question, only to ensure that charitable judgement is exercised towards fellow Christians. No Christian church would escape unspotted from the kind of judgementalism displayed in this thread. "For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment."

I think you need to re-look at your own posts and think about how they might be percieved in the light of the discussion.

Anyway, this thread was simply about my visit to a free church, it was initially about what I liked about it but it also contained the observations of the surrounding unbelieving community.

I have started a new thread which deal with the issue which is arising in this thread in a more general way since none of is in the place to fully judge the judgements of the unbelievers or the attitudes of this local church.

I think the issue has given rise to imporatnt questions which cannot just be brushed away by statements which say things like

An unbeliever does not a good judge make!

In the light of the converstaion such statements do not take seriously the concerns of the lost and ignore and justify the sins of the saints. As a minister I hope this is not the approach you take with the congregation which is under your care.

Like I said I think these issues can be debated more fruitfully in another thread.

Blessings

Originally Posted by Jon 316

As a minister I hope this is not the approach you take with the congregation which is under your care.

As a minister I encourage the flock under my care to abstain from listening to or passing on gossip; to always make sure they have heard both sides of the story; and to bear in mind their own faults before they pass judgement on others.

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Originally Posted by Jon 316

As a minister I hope this is not the approach you take with the congregation which is under your care.

As a minister I encourage the flock under my care to abstain from listening to or passing on gossip; to always make sure they have heard both sides of the story; and to bear in mind their own faults before they pass judgement on others.

For someone who takes such an approach you seem to have passed judgement on the unbelievers who live in the surrounding community of this local church very quickly.

I think our conversation in the context of this thread has stepped beyond productivity.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

For someone who takes such an approach you seem to have passed judgement on the unbelievers who live in the surrounding community of this local church very quickly.

I just take seriously what the Bible says when it tells me that the world by wisdom knew not God, that Jesus came into the world that He had made and the world knew Him not, that the world does not know the Holy Spirit, and that therefore the world knows us not because it knew Him not. Ask an unbeliever why he does not believe in Jesus Christ and you will soon come to the conclusion of the apostle Paul: "unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."

Originally Posted by Galatians220

Without stepping on any toes and in the interest of Christian fellowship, may I suggest that a book called "When Justice Failed in Church and State" by Iain Murray of Banner of Truth and Murdoch Murchison provides a fair, as far as I know, summary of the split in the Free Church of Scotland which led to the birth of the Free Church [Continuing]? The book is a little hard to come by, but I know of sources for it.

Margaret

I strongly second this.

Originally Posted by Jon 316

In the light of the converstaion such statements do not take seriously the concerns of the lost and ignore and justify the sins of the saints. As a minister I hope this is not the approach you take with the congregation which is under your care.

Like I said I think these issues can be debated more fruitfully in another thread.

Blessings

What do the sins of some saints have to do with the doctrine of a church, the denomination, etc??

Would you say people of another denomination would be free of these appearances to the world?

Is it because they are Wee Free these are there? Are they absent in other denominations?

I would say the less strict denominations often have more sin in its members and a more worldly lifestyle, less convicting and upsetting to the unbelievers.

Whereas, right or wrong, a more strict and distinct church and more outspoken people would cause more offense to unbelievers.

We should be hated of men and I question it when we are not.

Luke 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. NKJV