Thread: How "Church" Is Done

In another thread Charlie mentioned that either the PCA or the OPC sang more songs in their services. I find that interesting. Here's what I asked Charlie:

Originally Posted by Ivan

Originally Posted by charliejunfan

Doesn't the OPC sing more songs per service generally? That would be a difference that would matter to me...

Really? Why is that? That's interesting because it would make a difference to me too.

I wasn't really interested in how that makes the PCA and OPC different. And this wasn't the purpose of the thread so I made this new thread. I was just wondering why the amount of songs in a service makes a different to Charlie and anyone else.

I'm afraid I may be a tad different than most worshippers. A modest number of songs are fine with me, as long as they exalt Christ and not man, but about three or four hymns are enough for me and I wouldn't be disappointed if there where far less. Let me add, if you were in worship with me you would never know it. I BELT out the hymns. I've been told that others appreciate a pastor who actually sings along with the congregation, but if we sang not one song I'd be fine with it. I have confesssed!

You obviously want more time for the sermon.

The primary part of the worship service is preaching. So if the songs outweigh the preaching, then there are too many. Our church sings 2 psalms. If you look at it time wise, we don't spend a whole lot of time singing but that is because preaching is primary. Before I came to the doctrines of grace and was in an Arminian church there was 30-35 minutes of singing and about 20 minutes of preaching. The Scriptures, however, establish preaching as primary in the worship service. That would be my reason why the number of songs would matter.

I love to sing along with the congregation. Unfortunately, my sound guys last Sunday muted the wireless mike I had on, but forgot to mute the pulpit mike. So I was blaring out of the speakers, and into the nursery.

I love singing - esp. scripture (psalms). For some reason I can remember them when they are set to music! I guess I'm a "musical learner". Is there such a thing? Grin

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

I love to sing along with the congregation. Unfortunately, my sound guys last Sunday muted the wireless mike I had on, but forgot to mute the pulpit mike. So I was blaring out of the speakers, and into the nursery.

It's funny. They never forget to turn my mike off for the hymns.

The Romanian church I go to is disproportionately music-driven; the PCA church I sometimes visit is not bad, they sing about four or so hymns and then a sermon.

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

I love to sing along with the congregation. Unfortunately, my sound guys last Sunday muted the wireless mike I had on, but forgot to mute the pulpit mike. So I was blaring out of the speakers, and into the nursery.

Fred, I had a similar experience. The sound guy forgot to mute my mic during the congregational singing. Not only do you have one impressive sermon on Romans , but you my tenor voice booming on the recording. It was rather embarrassing when I played it back. Pavarotti I'm not.

I agree with the assessment from my own personal experience which spans 12 years and numerous PCA congregations that in the OPC there is more singing in the Worship Service but as Fred has reminded us in another thread it varies from church to church. We also have a Hymn Sing every other week on Tuesday nights and learn a New Hymn or Psalm each month. I like it and am not a fan of the 2 Songs and out Worship services that I have been a part of in the past.

Our worship service is really from about 10:30 to 11:30 am...maybe a little longer. We list it as 10:15 but we have a time for announcements and prayer before the actual worship service begins (Obviously we spend a good portion of that 15 minutes in prayer as we prepare for worship). So during about 25 minutes we sing, take up the offering and pray several more times before I preach. I usually start preaching at 10:55 am...we don't plan it that way it, it just seems to happen. So the song service is something like 20-25 minutes and I preach for about 35 minutes. Frankly, I'm in complete control of how long anything last, so it's not a matter of me "wanting" to have more time for preach...I have as much time as I want.

Still, I love to sing...when we sing. I have been told I can "carry a tune". There have been many times that I have had to lead the singing without the benefit of a piano.

If I am at another church to worship or at the annual meeting of the SBC or the Pastor's Conference, I want to get to the Word! However, if I could pick particular group or people to lead the singing portion of the service I think I could go a full hour of song very easily with the Gettys!

I sometimes would like to skip the hymns or Psalms, too. I am not sure why, but sometimes I am just impatient. Usually I enjoy singing and am focused, but not always. There, I confessed, too!

I love singing! I like loads of congregational singing. The more the better. At my church we typically sing 6 hymns/psalms/songs and the doxology. That to me is about right. Don't give me no worship service with just 2 hymns. And oh my, if the choir/soloists sing more items than the congregation, well, then I'm just upset.
It's a beautiful thing to sing to our God. Do it in the sanctuary with God's people. Do it at home, in the car, in the shower. Learn the psalms and hymns of the faith by heart and sing them often.

I love to sing.
Our church seems to love to sing.
Most people want/expect to sing every single verse of every song.

We sing 4 songs in each of two services.
We have a three-song "you-pick-it" prior to the PM service.
After both benedictions, we sing a response of 1 or 2 verses.

Youth SS classes sing a bit.


I think we could cut-back to 3 songs per service.

Our services are supposed to be approx. one hour.
There are situational and prudential reasons for staying close to that ideal.
Three songs would cut back on the potential of going too far over our closing target.

Eliminating the "response" verse(s) wouldn't bother me.
I do not mind including within the service "response" type songs--
--I learned Doxology and Gloria Patri that way as a child.


All I'm saying is: the more may be better, or it might not be. I don't think there's a rule.

We sing 6.5 songs on most weeks. Which preacher was it that said, "I don't want my sermon to have to drive 90 yards for a touchdown. I prefer the singing to drive 90 yards and then all I have to do is punch it in from the 10 yard line." (For the Brits, he is talking about football)

OPC church attendee here, and we sing two hymns at the beginning at one at the close, not counting the doxology. Our pastor belts out his singing too and I like it. In fact, I think I am going to do some sing now...

We sing 2 to 3 songs each Sunday. We open with a prayer for the families (fathers and sons stand, pray, wives and daughters stand, pray) a reading of a psalm with commentary, then scripture reading (usually 2 - 4 chapters depending on length) then we have the sermon and then songs and the doxology. We put the songs after the sermon and the reading of the word as a response the word.

The sermon is usually 40 - 50 minutes.

We sing 3 Psalms per service (total of 6 in stated worship) and often sing more at the Pastor's house upon the end of the Sabbath.

Originally Posted by John Lanier

The primary part of the worship service is preaching. So if the songs outweigh the preaching, then there are too many....The Scriptures, however, establish preaching as primary in the worship service. That would be my reason why the number of songs would matter.

I'm going to show my ignorance here: Where exactly is preaching established as primary?

Originally Posted by Tripel

Originally Posted by John Lanier

The primary part of the worship service is preaching. So if the songs outweigh the preaching, then there are too many....The Scriptures, however, establish preaching as primary in the worship service. That would be my reason why the number of songs would matter.

I'm going to show my ignorance here: Where exactly is preaching established as primary?

Throughout the Scriptures, preaching and teaching is emphasized. We don't find God's primary emphasis placed on singing. It is important, as it is part of worship but preaching is primary. Here are just a few verses.

2 Timothy 4:2
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine."

In Paul's pastoral epistles he gives direction to Timothy on preaching. He emphasizes preaching throughout and doesn't emphasize the way the singing should be done. Some would say, of course he counseled Timothy only on preaching because he was a preacher. However, there is no proof that Timothy as the pastor did not lead the singing as well. There was no office of song leader or music minister in the Scriptures.

Matthew 28:19-20
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

In the great commission, the instructions to the disciples were to go out preaching and teaching. Thus this is emphasized in making disciples.

1 Corinthians 1:21
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Preaching is God's chosen means to reveal the truth and bring men to salvation.

There is no point where singing is emphasized above preaching. It is only spoken of as a part of worship but never placed ahead of preaching.

I hope this answers your question.

The primary part of the worship service is preaching.

When we read about Isaiah and John observing worship in heaven, they record praise and thanksgiving -- crying out to the Lord. A worship service is not an academic lecture or education hour. Our primary "audience" is God himself.

That's not to belittle preaching, by any means. I love it; given a chance, I'd listen to several sermons every day. But it is only one part of worship.

Originally Posted by jwithnell

The primary part of the worship service is preaching.

When we read about Isaiah and John observing worship in heaven, they record praise and thanksgiving -- crying out to the Lord. A worship service is not an academic lecture or education hour. Our primary "audience" is God himself.

That's not to belittle preaching, by any means. I love it; given a chance, I'd listen to several sermons every day. But it is only one part of worship.

I would have two responses:

1) From your statement "When we read about Isaiah and John observing worship in heaven." This is speaking of worship in Heaven and is highly symbolic. There were also altars and incense involved in the worship John saw in Heaven. This is not to say that we won't sing God's praises in Heaven but these verses can't be used to determine our worship here on earth or we would have a temple, altars, and incense.

2) Is God not glorified and worshipped during preaching? Is only singing worship while preaching is merely educational? Does he not delight in hearing His Word expounded?

Originally Posted by John Lanier

There is no point where singing is emphasized above preaching. It is only spoken of as a part of worship but never placed ahead of preaching.

....

Is God not glorified and worshipped during preaching? Is only singing worship while preaching is merely educational? Does he not delight in hearing His Word expounded?

I agree that singing is not given priority in Scripture, but at the same time I don't think it is a lesser aspect of worship than preaching. I'm not arguing that anything is more important than preaching, just saying that I don't think Scripture suggests preaching is more important that singing praise, prayer, reading of the Word, etc.

Preaching is God's chosen means to reveal the truth and bring men to salvation.

Certainly. But your reasoning suggests that our primary goal in worship is to bring men to salvation. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your argument, but if that's what you are saying, I'll disagree and suggest that our primary goal is to bring honor to the Lord.

Originally Posted by Tripel

Originally Posted by John Lanier

There is no point where singing is emphasized above preaching. It is only spoken of as a part of worship but never placed ahead of preaching.

....

Is God not glorified and worshipped during preaching? Is only singing worship while preaching is merely educational? Does he not delight in hearing His Word expounded?

I agree that singing is not given priority in Scripture, but at the same time I don't think it is a lesser aspect of worship than preaching. I'm not arguing that anything is more important than preaching, just saying that I don't think Scripture suggests preaching is more important that singing praise, prayer, reading of the Word, etc.

Preaching is God's chosen means to reveal the truth and bring men to salvation.

Certainly. But your reasoning suggests that our primary goal in worship is to bring men to salvation. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your argument, but if that's what you are saying, I'll disagree and suggest that our primary goal is to bring honor to the Lord.

To respond to #1
I also am not saying that singing is not important as it is part of worship. However, what I am saying is that the services should be heavier on preaching.

To respond to #2
I am sorry if my response led you to believe that I meant this...

"But your reasoning suggests that our primary goal in worship is to bring men to salvation. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your argument, but if that's what you are saying, I'll disagree and suggest that our primary goal is to bring honor to the Lord."

No, that was not what I was trying to say. My belief is that the worship service's goal is to bring glory to God. In fact I believe that the worship services are for the saved not the lost. This is not to say that the lost cannot be there, but I don't believe in "seeker sensitive" services. What I was trying to say was this "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14. My point was that preaching is the means ordained by God to bring men to salvation, not singing.

Originally Posted by John Lanier

I also am not saying that singing is not important as it is part of worship. However, what I am saying is that the services should be heavier on preaching.

Again, I just don't see how that is something that can be anything other than personal preference. I understand and agree with what you're saying about the importance of preaching, but I don't think it's importance trumps the other elements of worship and thus should be given more time.

What I was trying to say was this "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14. My point was that preaching is the means ordained by God to bring men to salvation, not singing.

Right. Preaching is a powerful tool God uses to bring men to himself, and it is more effective as a tool of salvation than singing. I agree with you on that. But again, worship is not all about bringing people to salvation.
I feel like we are probably in agreement on the purpose of worship, but I think you are making an unnecessary jump in declaring that preaching is primary because it brings people to faith. Giving honor to the Lord is primary. We do that (by his grace) through several elements of worship.

-----Added 7/14/2009 at 04:23:29 EST-----

Back to the OP...

Our service is probably 40-50% preaching and 50-60% everything else (prayer, scripture, hymns, tithes/offering, sacraments, etc).

We probably do 4-5 hymns every week, and I love to sing them. On the occasional week that only 3 hymns make into the order of worship, I'm a little bummed.

Well I am OPC and we sing at least 5, so maybe we started the rumor that OPC sings more. If they are overly long then we will sing only a few stanzas. They almost never forget to turn the mike off for our Pastor too.

I have to mirror 21st Century Calvinist. I love to sing and would be disappointed if my church decided to sing 2 or 3 songs during our service. We sing for about 25-30 minutes and the preacher speaks for 40-50 minutes. I love the singing. I love the word. I would not want to reduce either one.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XXI

V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,[17] the sound preaching[18] and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence,[19] singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20] as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God:[21] beside religious oaths,[22] vows,[23] solemn fastings,[24] and thanksgivings upon special occasions,[25] which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.[26]

I enjoy singing hymns, psalms and spiritual songs a lot.

While I haven't thought about how often we sing in contrast to others, I noted a long time ago our PCA church usually sings all stanzas of a hymn- so if there are six stanzas we sing all 6. It seems like they were shorter at other churches.

Generally, there are at least 4-5 songs per service this way, divided up between hymns, choruses, the doxology. Very occasionally, we sing a psalm, something I am coming to appreciate more-and-more (thanks to Puritan Board).

Since we do not pass a plate for an offering during the service, public worship often breaks down into about 1/3 music, 1/3 preaching, 1/3 call to worship, Lord's Supper and prayer time. Not always, but worship through singing is always a substantial portion, and never cut short. (Now that I hear about this, I'm more thankful than ever for it)!

Nothing lifts my spirits more than singing a good hymn, psalm or spiritual song.

Originally Posted by Ivan

In another thread Charlie mentioned that either the PCA or the OPC sang more songs in their services. I find that interesting. Here's what I asked Charlie:

Originally Posted by Ivan

Originally Posted by charliejunfan

Doesn't the OPC sing more songs per service generally? That would be a difference that would matter to me...

Really? Why is that? That's interesting because it would make a difference to me too.

I wasn't really interested in how that makes the PCA and OPC different. And this wasn't the purpose of the thread so I made this new thread. I was just wondering why the amount of songs in a service makes a different to Charlie and anyone else.

I'm afraid I may be a tad different than most worshippers. A modest number of songs are fine with me, as long as they exalt Christ and not man, but about three or four hymns are enough for me and I wouldn't be disappointed if there where far less. Let me add, if you were in worship with me you would never know it. I BELT out the hymns. I've been told that others appreciate a pastor who actually sings along with the congregation, but if we sang not one song I'd be fine with it. I have confesssed!

I would tend to think that what is done in worship depends heavily on what a person thinks of as who is playing what role. If the congregation is the "actors" and God is the "audience" then one would naturally think that the actors would speak a lot. There is a place for the preaching of the word, but it is one element of the service. Responsive reading (the people speaking God's word back to him), singing praise, prayer, giving of tithes and offerings are also elements. While I absolutely love my pastor's preaching, it is not, nor should it be the sole reason for a worship service. He in fact has admonished those who have come in late ... in time for the sermon, but purposely skipped the rest. It is the people who are to actively worship God. When the preaching is so central to worship that people think it is "the important part" or worse, "it is an essential part" that would be required for every worship service, then it has gone too far. If the WCF in the section on worship promotes any part above the others, it is prayer. Preaching is not taught as so intrinsic to worship that it is required for worship.

-----Added 7/15/2009 at 12:39:10 EST-----

Originally Posted by fredtgreco

I love to sing along with the congregation. Unfortunately, my sound guys last Sunday muted the wireless mike I had on, but forgot to mute the pulpit mike. So I was blaring out of the speakers, and into the nursery.

Hmmm.... If you have "sound guys" do you have "unsound guys" as well?