Dear AV,
Thanks for the questions. Here are some clarifications.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV1611  Titus was an apostolic delegate commissioned by Paul to appoint elders in Crete. Once he died that responsibility died with him. |
Where does the Bible say that that responsibility died with him? Are the elders that Paul appointed in Acts 14:23 also apostolic delegates whose responsibility disappears when they died? It seems that you're bringing the idea to the text, not deriving it from the text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV1611 Timothy was an Evangelist which was a temporary office according to most commentators. |
But according to Scripture there's no evidence that the "evangelist" was temporary. That was an idea first given air by Eusebius of Caeserea (4th century), and it was kind of assumed from then on for quite some time. But it's not what most commentators would say now. Rightly it was called into question after the 17th century because the Bible nowhere says it.
It is true that the "apostle" and the "prophet" appears to be temporary from Eph. 2:20. But nowhere does the Bible say evangelists are. Moreover, the "evangelist" is a gift (Eph. 4:7-11), but is nowhere described as an office. We must be careful to distinguish between gift and office. Christ gifts his church, and one can exercise the ministry of the word and leading without being appointed to an office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV1611 Did Timothy appoint elders? |
The text doesn't explicitly say, but it's likely given that he is given the same sorts of instructions about the qualities of an elder in 1 Tim. 3 as Titus (in Titus 1). Moreover, he's charged by Paul not to engage in the laying on of hands (appointment of elders) lightly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV1611 We do indeed need to be very careful before we turn it into a prescription and so you also need to make sure that the description of Titus and Timothy does not become a prescription for prelacy.  |
I actually wasn't arguing that. I was merely saying that if you're going to use Acts to argue that we must have multiple elders, then one can use the same hermeneutic to prove the necessity of bishops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV1611 Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnOwen007 Churches existed before elders were appointed (Acts 14:23). Hence, churches can exist without office (elders). | This is not correct for is elders were not essential then why would have Paul charging Titus say "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee"? |
Firstly, Acts 14:23 shows clearly that churches existed before elders were appointed. Paul went back to churches to appoint them.
Secondly, just because Paul charged Titus to appoint elders, does it follow that churches must have elders to be churches? The letter of Titus was not written to us but to Titus. It was not written
to us but
for us. In other words, the letter of Titus is occasional. So, we have to dig deeper into the argument to see how things apply now.
We are given the exact reason why Titus was to appoint elders, it was because of the spread of false teachers on Crete (Titus 1:10-11). That is, it was for a specific situation; Crete in the first century.
The principle I would argue from this is: it would seem that elders (which are also called overseers and shepherds) are for the "well-being" (
bene esse) of the church, not the "being" (
esse) of the church. We can have a church without elders. But so that certain word-gifts (Eph. 4:11) can be fully discharged (especially as churches grow) then an office of elder needs at some stage to be created. This is what we find happening over the writing of the NT. Office develops.
As I have argued in the above posts, there is no clear evidence for an office of ruling-elder, as elders had to be able to teach (1 Tim. 3:2). Moreover, there is no mention of elders in the process of local church discipline in Matt. 18:15-20, 1 Cor. 5, and Gal. 6.
One more time: that doesn't mean ruling elders are unbiblical, just extra biblical. But it does mean a church doesn't have to have them.
God bless bro.
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