Fleeing Presbyterians

Richard King · #1 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 10:19 PM

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=6479

No Longer A Libertine · #2 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 10:47 PM

BelAir Presbyterin in Bel Air, Los Angeles, CA has boldly drawn a line in the sand with the PCUSA presbytery and I appluad them loudly for doing so, if liberalism is forced upon the body by national mandates they have already threatened to leave and consider being independent or joining the EPC.

KMK · #3 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 10:27 AM

PCUSA is going down a similar road as the ABC and people aren't having it. The liberals think they can continue to push the envelope under the guise of 'love your neighbor' but they find that even the weakest believers have convictions about sexual sin and the authority of Scripture.

I found this humorous, though:

Quote:

A smaller spinoff began with 12 northern churches who also opposed abortion and backed Scripture's authority, created the Evangelical Presbyterian Church that now has 75,000 members in 188 churches. (PCA churches do not allow women to serve as clergy, while EPC churches do.)

How can one "back Scripture's authority" and at the same time allow women clergy?

Are there any EPCers on the board that can explain this?

calgal · #4 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

PCUSA is going down a similar road as the ABC and people aren't having it. The liberals think they can continue to push the envelope under the guise of 'love your neighbor' but they find that even the weakest believers have convictions about sexual sin and the authority of Scripture.

I found this humorous, though:

How can one "back Scripture's authority" and at the same time allow women clergy?

Are there any EPCers on the board that can explain this?

Not EPC but I think there is an issue with former PCUSA churches having female elders (their former denomination REQUIRES at least one female elder in each session). There were apparently a few female clerics that left the PCUSA but I do not understand the inconsistency either.

Contra_Mundum · #5 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 12:07 PM

If churches in these hierarchies cannot get pro bono legal help, they may well spend far more trying to save their property than it is worth, or than they ought to spend holding on to it.

"Let goods and kindred go,
this mortal life also.
The body they may kill;
God's truth abideth still.
His kingdom is forever."

It may be disappointing to lose a precious piece of this world. But what profit is there is gaining the whole world, if in the process you lose your soul--something made very likely when the truth is sacrificed instead of "contending" for it.

And that, people, is the story of these mainline churches. They pitied and mocked the ones who left with nothing many years ago. They built bigger barns, and more beautiful properties. And now they too will lose those, and much, much more.

They want to go back... to the 1980s, or 50s, or whatever (times of deep declension, all, which is the greater irony). They have no real "place" to return, because they have nothing timeless to retain. There is no "going back," there never was, there never will be.

The key to Reformation is laying hold (or strengthening your grip) on the permanent in the present era. The reason the past often looks attractive is not because of the accidents of history, but because they were holding on to something that has since been lost. So even in an era like the late 20th century, there was not much in the mainline, but there was a little more than today. Some can tell the difference.

In the end, most will stay with their hollow property. Leaving, they will have little to hold them together, because they have no desire to find the ones who departed 70 years ago (OPC) or 35 years ago (PCA). A few may want to join the EPC, the "last generation's presbyterians." But in the end, there will be no great exodus.

2 Ki. 20:19 Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah, "The word of the LORD that you have spoken is good." For he thought, "Why not, if there will be peace and security in my days?"

jfschultz · #6 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

If churches in these hierarchies cannot get pro bono legal help, they may well spend far more trying to save their property than it is worth, or than they ought to spend holding on to it.

"Let goods and kindred go,
this mortal life also.
The body they may kill;
God's truth abideth still.
His kingdom is forever."

It may be disappointing to lose a precious piece of this world. But what profit is there is gaining the whole world, if in the process you lose your soul--something made very likely when the truth is sacrificed instead of "contending" for it.

And that, people, is the story of these mainline churches. They pitied and mocked the ones who left with nothing many years ago. They built bigger barns, and more beautiful properties. And now they too will lose those, and much, much more.

They want to go back... to the 1980s, or 50s, or whatever (times of deep declension, all, which is the greater irony). They have no real "place" to return, because they have nothing timeless to retain. There is no "going back," there never was, there never will be.

The key to Reformation is laying hold (or strengthening your grip) on the permanent in the present era. The reason the past often looks attractive is not because of the accidents of history, but because they were holding on to something that has since been lost. So even in an era like the late 20th century, there was not much in the mainline, but there was a little more than today. Some can tell the difference.

In the end, most will stay with their hollow property. Leaving, they will have little to hold them together, because they have no desire to find the ones who departed 70 years ago (OPC) or 35 years ago (PCA). A few may want to join the EPC, the "last generation's presbyterians." But in the end, there will be no great exodus.

2 Ki. 20:19 Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah, "The word of the LORD that you have spoken is good." For he thought, "Why not, if there will be peace and security in my days?"

I was at Second Presbyterian Church, Memphis, when it went through the "Escape Clause" procedure to leave the PCUSA for the EPC. (This was an option in the UPCUSA - PCUS plan of union that had a time limit and only available to former PCUS congregations.) There were months of Wednesday night classes on what was happening and the decline in the PCUSA. But during the six months between the vote to have the vote to leave and and the vote to leave it was all property, property, property.

The session was right to follow the rules set forth in the escape clause, but the reason to leave must be theological!

Calvibaptist · #7 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfschultz

I was at Second Presbyterian Church, Memphis, when it went through the "Escape Clause" procedure to leave the PCUSA for the EPC. (This was an option in the UPCUSA - PCUS plan of union that had a time limit and only available to former PCUS congregations.) There were months of Wednesday night classes on what was happening and the decline in the PCUSA. But during the six months between the vote to have the vote to leave and and the vote to leave it was all property, property, property.

The session was right to follow the rules set forth in the escape clause, but the reason to leave must be theological!

My dad's a Methodist minister, and this is one of the reasons (there are many) why the conservatives haven't split the church. They would lose all their property and the UMC would just put a liberal Methodist church in their place.