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Ecclesiology Discussion of Church Government, Polity and the like
that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15)

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Old 03-03-2007, 04:39 PM
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Faithful Fathers

<<Email by Gary North>>

March 3, 2007

Dear Subscriber:

I have just read an article summarizing a study of
church attendance in Switzerland. The data are old: 1994.

The trends recorded are not startling, but the
statistics are.

If both father and mother attend regularly, 33
percent of their children will end up as regular
churchgoers, and 41 percent will end up attending
irregularly. Only a quarter of their children
will end up not practicing at all. If the father
is irregular and mother regular, only 3 percent
of the children will subsequently become regulars
themselves, while a further 59 percent will
become irregulars. Thirty-eight percent will be
lost.

If the father is non-practicing and mother
regular, only 2 percent of children will become
regular worshippers, and 37 percent will attend
irregularly. Over 60 percent of their children
will be lost completely to the church.

Let us look at the figures the other way round.
What happens if the father is regular but the
mother irregular or non-practicing?
Extraordinarily, the percentage of children
becoming regular goes up from 33 percent to 38
percent with the irregular mother and to 44
percent with the non-practicing, as if loyalty to
father's commitment grows in proportion to
mother's laxity, indifference, or hostility.

http://snipurl.com/fathersattendance

Whether these data apply to other Western countries is
speculative. But the general trend elsewhere is clear.
Where women dominate churches, attendance steadily falls.
Mainline Protestant denominations are shrinking for
numerous reasons, but the feminization of both the liturgy
and leadership should be at the top of the list until
proven differently.

The kind of impotent Christianity that was sketched in
"Life With Father," both in the novel and on-screen, should
have been a yellow alert flag in the 1940s. Instead, it
was received warmly. It remains the longest-running non-
musical play in Broadway history. The ditzy mother who
believed in baptismal regeneration was the Christian. The
wealthy father wasn't. The children went along for the
ride -- literally in the closing scene of the movie.

When women marry non-Christians, they are basically
consigning their children to hell. They don't consider
this when they marry. Non-Christian men get what they want
when they marry Christians. In contrast, Christian women
undermine their nurturing role in the most horrendous way
imaginable. They are the big losers. So are their
children. So is the church.

Churches condone this by not imposing ecclesiastical
sanctions against members who marry non-Christians.

At the end of the article is a link to an article by
Roman Catholic scholar Leon Podles. It is a brief summary
of his book, "The Church Impotent: The Feminization of
Christianity." I read the book five years ago and was
persuaded -- also horrified. This is not a new problem.
He says it goes back to the 13th century.

When Christianity is seen primarily as a religion of
the heart and hearth, it becomes feminized: nurturing and
child-centered. When it is seen as a religion of cultural
reconstruction, it imposes risks outside the home. It then
must balance feminism with masculinity.

Conclusion: pietism is inherently feminist.

Yet there is a compensating factor. When women
recognize that their nurturing is threatened by cultural
trends, they can be drawn away from the hearth and into the
public square. When men refuse to get involved in cultural
and political resistance, some women move into the vacuum.
Think of Phyllis Schlafly and Beverley LaHaye. Think of
Margaret Thatcher.

Women on the Left have been trying to change society
ever since the mid-nineteenth century, but rarely since the
close of the era of abolitionism have these women been
closely associated with confessional Christianity.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Annie Bessant, and Breatrice Webb
were hostile to the church.

Preachers who preach to please women at the expense of
ignoring masculine concerns are undermining the church's
inheritance in the widest sense. They must begin to preach
to the men who are not there if they ever expect men to
show up later on.

Sincerely,

Gary North
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:31 PM
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Such reasoning - however well-intended - contradicts John 3:8.
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:38 PM
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That article is something we all should ponder and work to address. That data does indeed explain quite a lot. Thanks for posting it, Hermonta.
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter Schneider View Post
Such reasoning - however well-intended - contradicts John 3:8.
How? God uses means in salvation, and does it not make sense that men, as the appointed spiritual leaders of their homes, would be used to be the foundation of the next generation of believers?
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter Schneider View Post
Such reasoning - however well-intended - contradicts John 3:8.
Dieter,

This is an assertion without an argument. Why does the article contradict John 3:8?
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaCalvinist View Post
Dieter,

This is an assertion without an argument. Why does the article contradict John 3:8?
It seems that the argument would be that if there is a correlation between father's church attendance and the calling of the next generation then the scripture should not read that the wind blows wherever it wishes. The problem is hidden assumption that "wherever it wishes" is a synonym for completely random. That would need an argument that I just cannot see being given.

CT
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:01 PM
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Can we really predict / plan when a person will be converted? Surely NOT!
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianTrader View Post
It seems that the argument would be that if there is a correlation between father's church attendance and the calling of the next generation then the scripture should not read that the wind blows wherever it wishes. The problem is hidden assumption that "wherever it wishes" is a synonym for completely random. That would need an argument that I just cannot see being given.

CT
I see. Well, I agree that the argument is tenuous, if that is the argument. The thing is, due to the nature of unfounded assertions we're left to wonder for ourselves how the person (in this case, Dieter) actually got to their conclusion. And the main reason I raised the issue is because it's helpful to know what someone is actually saying before attempting to respond to them. That's how it seems to me, at least. Sorry if this is clearer than I'm making it out to be and I'm just being difficult, Dieter.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter Schneider View Post
Can we really predict / plan when a person will be converted? Surely NOT!
Dieter,

To a certain extent, of course we can. People are "ordinarily" saved through the preaching of the Gospel. It doesn't have anything to do with willy-nilly planning and predicting, it's just what the bible tells us. Similarly, we also see certain patterns and ideas in scripture, for instance that God works in/through families as a unit. Families were often brought into the Church through the conversions of heads of households (normally men exccept perhaps in the case of Lydia). Particularly germane to the question is the statement made to the Philippian jailer in Acts 16: "Believe and you will be saved, you and your household." Because the jailer was converted, his family also had a chance to hear the Gospel which they wouldn't have had otherwise.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:54 PM
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Well - I am in agreement with Scripture - of course. But one can prove anything from statistics.
If we can predict how God will gather in His elect then we know more than He has revealed.
We must be faithful – and God will grant the increase – in his own time, cf. 1.Cor.15:58 and 3:6.
I would venture to suggest that our lack of holiness is probably a great hindrance to the work of the Holy Spirit.
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Old 03-04-2007, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter Schneider View Post
Such reasoning - however well-intended - contradicts John 3:8.
Dieter,

You're a treasure trove of un-scriptural one-liners. If you wish to deal with a subject substantively then do so. You still have not shown how the faithfulness of a father contradicts John 3:8. John 3:8 does not say that God does not use the means of parents, it simply states that God regenerates. You might as well throw out the whole of Proverbs if you believe the idea above contradicts John 3:8. God does not contradict himself. The article says nothing about the precise means or why it is the case but it is an observation that is consistent with the Biblical themes of nurture throughout the Scripture that are re-iterated in the New Testament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieter Schneider View Post
Well - I am in agreement with Scripture - of course. But one can prove anything from statistics.
If we can predict how God will gather in His elect then we know more than He has revealed.
We must be faithful – and God will grant the increase – in his own time, cf. 1.Cor.15:58 and 3:6.
I would venture to suggest that our lack of holiness is probably a great hindrance to the work of the Holy Spirit.
So, which is it? The idea of faithful fathers contradicts John 3:8 or it does not?
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Old 03-04-2007, 02:50 AM
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The survey does not give reasons for the importance of the father's faith, but if asked to speculate, many people think of what was taught to them only by their mothers as childish, something to be grown out of, while what is taught by their fathers is more adult, more real, not just a story for children. This is notto say that this is how the Gospel is presented by the mothers, but it may be the psychological result in the child's mind. Boys whose fathers don't attend church stop going when the reach their late teens and want to think themselves grown up; women in the same situation attend for longer, but frequently marry non-believers, and perhaps subsequently stop attending - church attendence just isn't in their picture of what mature men do.
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Old 03-04-2007, 02:52 AM
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Bingo. Timothy, I think you hit the nail on the head, and these very situations describe several friends of mine right now.
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:00 PM
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q

Last edited by Dieter Schneider; 03-22-2007 at 07:01 PM.. Reason: wrong box
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:02 PM
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With due respect (I'll use a mallet rather than a sledge-hammer) - I do believe that God can and does save households. But God is sovereign in the salvation of man and we cannot predict God's next move or how many people will be converted; hence my quotation from John 3. We may preach 3.000 sermons and see 1 conversion or preach 1 sermon and see 3.000 conversions. God decides - man does not.
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