Are there any differences as far as doctrine and church government is concerned?

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Brian Fay
A reformed believer in search of a likeminded community to attach to.

There are no fundamental differences theologically, confessionally. The folk who wrote the WCF knew Dort and were deeply influenced by the Heidelberg and the Belgic. They read continental Reformed theology.

On close inspection, virtually all the alleged differences evaporate. Certainly the 16th and 17th century Reformed/Presbyterian folk were not conscious of the sorts of differences folk allege today.

There are differences in ethos, history, and ecclesiology. The Presbyterians tend to focus more on procedure and polity, especially if they are OPC but there are historic reasons for that (mainly, what happened to Machen in the PCUSA).

There are differences in polity. In Dutch churches the relations between classis and consistory (the local adjudicating body) are described as broader not "higher." In Presbyterian polity, the presbytery is "higher" than the session etc. In Dutch polity, ministers are not members of classis, only of their local congregation. Classis only exists as a delegated body. When it closes business it doesn't exist. In Presbyterian polity, the Presbytery is a body that always exists and frequently meets (again, esp. in the OPC! - I say with affection and reverence). The minister is a member of Presbytery on loan to a local congregation.

There are some liturgical differences too. Most Presbyterian congregations I've visited do not, e.g., have a strong declaration of pardon/absolution, whereas at least some of the Dutch Reformed do. The Presbyterians do not require an evening/afternoon (second service) catechism sermon as the Dutch are supposed to have by the Dort church order.

There are ethnic differences, of course. Presbyterians tend to be of Scots, or Scots-Irish, or other Celtic background and they tend to have been in this country longer than the those affiliated with the CRC or URC. Ethnicity may be a stronger cultural bond among the Dutch than the cultural bonds among Presbyterians, with the exception of the covenanters who seem to have quite strong cultural bond. They tend to know each others families/clans etc as the Dutch do. I don't know if they play Scots bingo as the Dutch play "dutch bingo" (how many names does one have to list before we know a family in common?) but I guess they do.

rsc

__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

Two differences come to mind.

The Dutch Reformed do not ordain Ruling Elders as Presbyterians do. They install them. When their term is up they become former Elders.

The Heidelberg Catechism is not explicitly Zwinglian like the Westminster Confession.

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Thomas Yeutter,
Mason, MI
Member St. Patrick's Anglican Church, Comstock, MI

Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had set his heart to study the law of the Lord and to do it and to teach its statues in Isreal.

What exactly are you referring to here?

(If the Lord's Supper, specifically section two of the chapter on it, the context of the rest of that chapter more than confirms that it is not in fact speaking of the Supper in a Zwinglian sense.)

__________________
Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

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Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

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Are there different perspectives on the Lord's Day?

__________________
David Cronkhite, Elder
Pasadena United Reformed Church

"I count myself one of the number of those
who write as they learn, and learn as they write."

Thomas,

I've heard this suggested, but I doubt that it is true, at least its not universally true.

It's true that the Dutch Reformed have term eldership, but they are ordained to their office, at least they have been in my experience.

In the URC there is a little more flexibility and we in Oceanside regard our elders as active and inactive.

I admit to some confusion here. I haven't checked Monsma et al to see what they say about the CO.

It is also true that the Dutch Ref'd don't speak of "teaching" elders. We have three offices, pastor, elder, and deacon. Some Presbyterians (typically in the OPC) do also speak this way, whereas the PCA speaks of ruling and teaching elders.

These, however, are not matters of theology but polity.

As Zwinglianism in the WCF, the divines would be quite surprised, most all of them anyway, to discover they were confessing Zwinglianism!

What exactly do you find Zwinglian in the Standards?

rsc

I think that the differences that some find are not easily sustained by close examination of both the WCF and HC.

The Dutch are often called "practical sabbatarians," and the suggestion is made that they are less strict on the sabbath in theory, but in practice. That may be, but I think it's hard to prove.

The HC is not as expansive as the WCF on the sabbath, but I don't know that there's much evidence that the writers of the HC would dissent much from the WCF. Ursinus wrote on the sabbath and during the Calvinist regime in Heidelberg/the Palatinate, strict rules about sabbath observance were imposed by the magistrate.

The HC says:

There is a logical continuity between "begin in this life" and "everlasting sabbath." I.e., this is the Christian sabbath as the LC 116 says. This is briefer than the Standards, but the Standards were filling out their ethics on the same principles taught in the HC.

rsc

[Edited on 2-5-2006 by R. Scott Clark]

Any one who thinks that the Dutch Reformed are "practical sabbitarians" and not "strict" like Presbyterians should read Teellink.

__________________
*Peter Gray* Elkins Park RPCNA

"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. " Mk 9:24
"The greatest thing we can desire, next to the glory of God, is our own salvation; and the sweetest thing we can desire is the assurance of our salvation. In this life we cannot get higher than to be assured of that which in the next life is to be enjoyed. All saints shall enjoy a heaven when they leave this earth; some saints enjoy a heaven while they are here on earth." Joseph Caryl

Thanks for the answers. I have one specific question in regards to church government.

If there is a conflict between two brothers/sisters in a church that can not be resolved between them and the session can't resolve it, it is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that Presbyterians can appeal to a higher court all the way to the GA. In a similiar situation how would this be handled in a Dutch Reformed denomination?

[Edited on 2-5-2006 by faydawg67117]

The Dutch have a parallel system of consistory (local), classis (regional), (sometimes also a regional synod), and (national) synod.

The Dort church order provides avenues for complaint and appeal through the broader assemblies. Overtures are written and published to the assemblies in a similar way as in Presbyterian bodies. Some Dutchmen might be a little more reluctant than Presbyterians to pronounce on doctrinal issues absent a specific case, but this isn't absolute.

So, if there is a conflict, it should go to consistory. If no resolution, then it can be appealed to classis, failing there, it can be appealed to Synod.

The URC CO is at http://www.urcna.org

rsc

Chris;
You and Dr. Clark are right. I used too strong of language in calling the Westminster explicitly Zwinglian. You are correct that when the Westminster is read in context expresses Calvin's view not that of Zwingli. I should of said the Westminster is open to a Zwinglian interpretation in a way the Three Forms of Unity are not.

Do you ordain elders with the laying on of hands in the United Reformed Church?

In the Protestant Reformed Church and the Canadian Reformed Church I have heard the term former elder used. I also know of a case in the Canadian Reformed Church where a 'former elder' was nominated to the office of deacon.

Maybe the URC, PRC, CRC, and Netherlands Reformed Congregations share the Church order of Dordt but have developed differently in how they impliment it.

FWIW, in an essay published via Princeton Seminary, Lyle Bierma argued that there were Zwinglian elements in the HC on the Supper. I don't agree, but my point is that folks are capable, if they will, of finding Zwingli in the HC as well as the WCF.

It comes down to what counts as "Zwingian," I suppose.

rsc

Yes, this is true. I don't mean to imply that all URC's think as we in Oceanside do. I don't know that to be the case.

Art. 6 of the URC CO envisions elders participating in the ordination of ministers. More is made of ministerial ordination than of that of elders, but if elders are considered "unordained" what are they doing participating in the minister's ordination? It may be that the Dutch practically reserve the verb "to ordain" for the ministerial office, and think implicitly of elders having a slightly different sort of ordination.

Art. 13 of the URC CO indicates some ambivalence when it equates ordination with installation:

Emphasis mine - rsc

rsc

I grew up in the Dutch Reformed setting, and I don't recall anything about a three office view. My first introduction to that came from my affiliation with Presbyterians, not the Dutch.

__________________
JohnV :detective:

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

John,

BC Art. 31 is pretty explicit:

In which of the Dutch Churches did you grow up?

Ed Clowney defended the three office view among American Presbyterians.

Derke Bergmsa has written an excellent exegetical defense of the three-office view in J. Armstrong ed., The Compromised Church. My pastor, Rev Danny Hyde is publishing an essay on this in a collection ed. by Rev Michael G. Brown to be published by the Outlook. There might be an essay on this in the Mark Brown, ed. collection of essays also.

rsc

Dr. Clark:

I grew up in the CRC. It was made clear to me that there was on office of elder, but that there was a distinction between elder and minster. Ministers indeed were to be respected as ministers of the gospel, with equal authority, while elders who also had the respect due to the office whereever they went, exercised that authority over the ones in their congregation, but also as delegated by Classis for the oversight of neighbouring churches.

The point seemed to be that no minister may lord it over a congregation; that the elders were to be sure that the preaching and pastoring was done in accordance with the rules of office. A minister may want to persuade his elders of a particular point of view, but he had not authority to press it, for the elders ruled that part. He was to submit to their authority of rulership as much as the elders were to submit to his spiritual leadership. And the Form of Subscription made the limitations clear enough for all to understand.

So though there may be a wider distinction within the office than normally thought, the office was one, not two. That's how I remember it. And I took pains to know how it was.

Thanks for the answers Dr. Clark. I am looking for a reformed church in my area and the best we've been to so far has been a dutch congregation. Most likely we'll continue to attend and might become members if all goes well.

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by faydawg67117]

Dr. Clark,

I don't think I understand this. How does the membership of the minister effect the broader vs. higher understanding? I think I'm missing the nuances of broader vs. higher. Would you please unpack this a little for me?

Thanks,
Christopher

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Christopher
Escondido OPC (Escondido, CA)
M.Div. Student at Westminster Seminary California

Could this wording be a result of allowing for the case where a man is re-elected to the office? They would merely be installed vs. being (re-)ordained. The PCA has this idea explicitly in their BCO.

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Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.

"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."

I think so, Tom. If you look at the form for ordaining a minister you will find, in brackets, "or install", or something like that. Also, in the Church Order you will find that the elders are to serve terms, usually three years; and that in such cases a third of the elders are to retire each year, so that there will be at least two thirds serving consecutive years at all times. Thus the word "install" would also refer to elders who are elected to office again.

OK, I think I've got it all figured out: the difference between the Dutch Reformed and the Presbyterian Reformed. Here goes -

In Presbyterianism you have what is commonly called the "apples and oranges" fallacy. That is, you can't compare apples to oranges; or there has to be a relationship between the things compared. This is a hard and fast rule, pretty well. If you can separate things into "apples" and "oranges" categories, then the logic falls apart.

Well, in Dutch reasoning there is not such fallacy. How do I know this? Well, the word for oranges is sinaasappel, and everyone knows enough Dutch to know that the last part of that word, "appel", is apple. So in Dutch they are related. Hence, there is a relationship. Hence, no "apples and oranges" fallacy.

Go ahead, ask a Dutchman if you can compare apples to oranges. He'll say, "Yaah, you ken. I like appels a whole lot more den sinaasappels. 'Cept at Sinter Klass, den I like sinaasappels more." End of story! And everyone knows that you can't change a Dutchman's mind once he has it made up.

Got it!

__________________
Rich
Northern VA
PCA

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