Thread: Divisions in the Reformed World

On my blog: The Split Peas. Would be interested in your thoughts . . .

It's sad.

On the other hand, rifts among Presbyterians are understandable. The devil attacks us; he wants nothing better than to destroy the Gospel and to discomfit God's children.

Having come out of Roman Catholicism into Presbyterianism-Lite (but I didn't know that's what it was; I just knew I was saved, gloriously saved!), I didn't know any better. Then when I jumped ship into the deeper waters (Reformed Presbyterianism), I didn't know what "the deal" was.

All I know is, if you want to know what being "alone with Christ" is all about, cling to real Reformed Presbyterianism. Being "chosen" but not "frozen" is not for the faint-hearted, that's for sure. Nor is it for those with weak faith. But the Lord will provide courage, and faith, and best of all, love for those who also love our Lord Jesus Christ.

How many times can you get hit with The Fist of Fellowship? How many Reformed Presbyterian churches are there? With how many congregants each?

I'm not running Reformed Presbyterianism down; I'm just bolstering the opening premise and stating the obvious. And giving a personal overview.

I look like this: (I feel worse.) But the Lord is in control and this earth, with all of its divisions even among brothers and sisters in Christ, is not our permanent home. Thankfully!

This is one of the ways, evidently, that He weans us away from this world. If we were all singing "Kumbaya" together -- we wouldn't be Reformed Presbyterians, would we?

The old joke is that where there are two Jews discussing anything, there are three opinions... Where, though, there are two Reformed Presbyterians embarking upon a doctrinal discussion, there is at least one wondering whether the brother or sister they're chatting with is advocating a point "grievous enough to break fellowship over."

It's sad, really.

Margaret

Well mine has had by far the longest tenure without a split.

Originally Posted by Galatians220

It's sad.

On the other hand, rifts among Presbyterians are understandable. The devil attacks us; he wants nothing better than to destroy the Gospel and to discomfit God's children.

Having come out of Roman Catholicism into Presbyterianism-Lite (but I didn't know that's what it was; I just knew I was saved, gloriously saved!), I didn't know any better. Then when I jumped ship into the deeper waters (Reformed Presbyterianism), I didn't know what "the deal" was.

All I know is, if you want to know what being "alone with Christ" is all about, cling to real Reformed Presbyterianism. Being "chosen" but not "frozen" is not for the faint-hearted, that's for sure. Nor is it for those with weak faith. But the Lord will provide courage, and faith, and best of all, love for those who also love our Lord Jesus Christ.

How many times can you get hit with The Fist of Fellowship? How many Reformed Presbyterian churches are there? With how many congregants each?

I'm not running Reformed Presbyterianism down; I'm just bolstering the opening premise and stating the obvious. And giving a personal overview.

I look like this: (I feel worse.) But the Lord is in control and this earth, with all of its divisions even among brothers and sisters in Christ, is not our permanent home. Thankfully!

This is one of the ways, evidently, that He weans us away from this world. If we were all singing "Kumbaya" together -- we wouldn't be Reformed Presbyterians, would we?

The old joke is that where there are two Jews discussing anything, there are three opinions... Where, though, there are two Reformed Presbyterians embarking upon a doctrinal discussion, there is at least one wondering whether the brother or sister they're chatting with is advocating a point "grievous enough to break fellowship over."

It's sad, really.

Margaret

Sorry, maybe I'm just tired, but what exactly are you trying to say?

Originally Posted by Davidius

Sorry, maybe I'm just tired, but what exactly are you trying to say?

Just that Reformed Presbyterians are not the friendliest people in the world, as a general observation. (And every generalization is a fallacy, I know, I know.) There must be remarkable exceptions (somewhere... ???), but I've been a member of about four of them and, well, if you want to get together with other Christians with whom you can pray during the week, etc., I think you'd be better off seeking out Reformed Baptists.

There are some experiences I've had in RP churches that have just been incredible. Nevertheless, I persist, because if I leave, there won't be one, single, "warm-fuzzy" left among them around here! And hope springs eternal.

Margaret

Casey,

You wanted my thoughts; here they are.

In my observation, the basic problem that Presbyterians have is our failure:

1. To understand what the Westminster Standards (WS) actually say

2. To admit that the WS probably "have it together" better than us, and to defer to their teaching

3. To recognize that nothing would be included in the WS if it weren't a "vital of religion"

4. To only make confessional issues a sticking point


Anywho, I see the Westminster Standards, for instance, as the "lowest common denominator" for Presbyterians. However, if we can't even accept the system of doctrine that they teach, I doubt we'll be able to move on to "bigger and better things". To sum up, the solution seems to be a return to our lowest common denominator. Every attempt to parse up the system of doctrine contained in the WS by bad-faith, denial, or rabbit trail, divides us up into ever diminishing power.

Cheers,

To me it seems that churches over time try to change certain things believing that the changes will bring people in the doors & then to Christ, Unfortunately I think that many changes are unscriptural which then leads those who are worried about them to "Reform" under another name but in the belief that it has been done scripturally.
Continual reformation in this way I think must take place otherwise we are in danger of continual reformation in a secular direction.

David

1. To understand what the Westminster Standards (WS) actually say

Herein lies part of the problem in a slightly different way than perhaps you meant it.

At this point in time, it almost seems as though we need another document with which to interpret the confessions. Cultural influences have obscured much of the black-and-white, 100%-of-life attitudes with which the WS were written, in my opinion. It reminds me of the recent (and perhaps ongoing thread) on taking 'exception' to parts of the WS or whatever confession you adhere to. It seems that a number of these exceptions have cultural influences attached to them. It also seems that among the BR crowd, the confessions are hardly mentioned anyway, so it matters little what problem you have with them. Sorry, clean-up time here, so my mind is starting to meander a bit what with the swirling clouds of kids and dishes...

1. To understand what the Westminster Standards (WS) actually say

Herein lies part of the problem in a slightly different way than perhaps you meant it.

At this point in time, it almost seems as though we need another document with which to interpret the confessions. Cultural influences have obscured much of the black-and-white, 100%-of-life attitudes with which the WS were written, in my opinion. It reminds me of the recent (and perhaps ongoing thread) on taking 'exception' to parts of the WS or whatever confession you adhere to. It seems that a number of these exceptions have cultural influences attached to them. It also seems that among the BR crowd, the confessions are hardly mentioned anyway, so it matters little what problem you have with them. Sorry, clean-up time here, so my mind is starting to meander a bit what with the swirling clouds of kids and dishes...

You may have heard this joke:

Five men were marooned on a desert isle- A German, Frenchman, Italian and two Scottish Presbyterians.

The German opened an astronomical observatory.

The Frenchman planted a vineyard and made wine.

The Italian opened a bakery.

The two Scottish Presbyterians...


opened First and Second Presbyterian Churches.

Not sure how I posted that twice...

Scott, I think I've got you beat:

After 20 years stranded on a desert island, a Dutch Reformed castaway was finally rescued.

Looking back toward the island as they were leaving, his rescuer noticed three structures. “Were you the only one on the island all this time?” he asked.

“Yes, I was,” replied John.

“I see three buildings there. Can you tell me what they were for?”

“Well,” said John, “the one in the middle is my house, and the one on the right is my church.”

“What about the third building?”

With a contrite look, John replied, “Oh, that’s the church I USED to go to.”

Originally Posted by kvanlaan

Scott, I think I've got you beat:

After 20 years stranded on a desert island, a Dutch Reformed castaway was finally rescued.

Looking back toward the island as they were leaving, his rescuer noticed three structures. “Were you the only one on the island all this time?” he asked.

“Yes, I was,” replied John.

“I see three buildings there. Can you tell me what they were for?”

“Well,” said John, “the one in the middle is my house, and the one on the right is my church.”

“What about the third building?”

With a contrite look, John replied, “Oh, that’s the church I USED to go to.”

Around here, they tell that joke about Baptists... It's still a good one, of course!

Margaret

Both of those jokes are great.

I was listening to Todd Friel on Way of The Master Radio the other day and here was his point: the process of church death to liberalism. DA Carson formulated this stating that any seminary will become a dead seminary within 75 years.

First generation - had to fight to become a "true" church without corruption, adhering to orthodoxy and standing against the times that surrounded them.

Second generation - after the establishment that the first generation accomplished, this generation has assumed orthodoxy that they, themselves did not have to fight for. They don't search the confessions or scriptures as much as the first.

Third generation - abandons orthodoxy.

This happens at churches as well but hopefully not as much.