Which was something I neither said or implied.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

It's not self defeating, being my whole point that there is appeal beyond the mere local level. Beyond the parties involved. I've never said or implied that human courts are infallible. I'm aware that they are not. I'm aware that there are rogue denominations who have done wickedly upon individuals, families, and even local churches. My point is that local autonomy gives no room for appeal beyond the local session.

I appreciate the attempt to clarify, truly I do, but it still misses the point. Understanding that there is no Scriptural human authority beyond the elders who rule the local church, Baptists recognize that it then rests in the hands of the Chief Shepherd, Jesus Christ. To appeal to other bodies, however sincere and impartial they may be, is both to move beyond biblical constituted authority as well as subject ourselves to an infinite process of appeal.

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Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

Not all of us understand it that way. Of course, I suppose that's for a different thread. We Presbyterians also believe that ultimate decisions lie in the hands of the Great Shepherd as well, lest it be thought otherwise.

Of course, I'll stop sidetracking and hijacking this baptist thread anyway.

Josh, you gotta be one of my favorite presbys!

Josh,

i don't see the cooperation among RB churches as ultimately futile. I'm somewhat biased in my comments because I am favor of our church joining ARBCA. I am impressed with the cooperation among ARBCA churches, even while each church remains congregational. Congregationalism has inerent weaknesses that need constant attention; not unlike similar problems at the presbytery level in Presbyterian denominations. These weaknesses should keep us humble and ever dependent on God.

I will make the argument that RB churches should seek each other out. Cooperation and support on doctrinal positions, missions, pastoral/elder training, common practices etc. will strengthen each church without a loss of scripturally-bound autonomy. But RB churches need to learn from their larger SBC brethren. Founders churches are trying to recapture the prominence their beliefs once held in the SBC, but they are fighting a battle against entrenched churches that are resisting change tooth and nail. Every human institution is subject to these problems to greater or lesser extents. RB associations are no exception. Semper Vigilans.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that. I know you better than to do that. But, it is often implied by others. That is why I posted the statement. The heart of man is wicked, and wicked hearts will always find a way to corrupt the doctrine and practice of the church regardless of leadership structure.

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We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
1644/46 LBC
My Blog - Imprimis

Josh, with particular Baptist in mind I presented a case where a local church was having a problem with their pastor and the church turned to the association which excommunicated the pastor. You may not have read all of my second post and missed that section, because I see you didn’t quote that. This is a direction that some RB want to go, not so they can be judged by a court, but for accountability on the local level by other pastors that may not be a part of the church. This is very much different then most Baptist churches and is even radical to the SBC; who promote such strong self freedom instead of interdependence on each other for the common goal of proclaiming Christ, the sole purpose of these associations historically.

Josh am sorry if you think its futile, but perhaps this that this is your own tradition bleeding through and blinding you instead of being open minded to God’s will then this area. Remember the words of Gamaliel, “if this plan or this undertaking is of man it will fail, but if it is of God you will not be able to overthrow them. You may be found opposing God.”(Acts 5:38-39) So I suggest be very careful what criticisms you place on the development of associations as reformed Baptist grow and mature to their more historical faith. For even the Presbyterian model, as brother Bob points out, has its issues to and we can see that within their own history. In the end we must realize that true justice comes from God and not from sinful man. We must keep are attention placed on scripture for the transforming of our minds instead of a government of men or ruling class in and out of the church for what is right. These structures did not prevent the rise of liberalism within the Presbyterian churches, a type of liberalism that was different and more accelerating in damage of the denial of key fundamental doctrine then we saw in Baptist circles. Not to say liberalism didn’t affect Baptist churches; it did, but differently.

There are many differences with RB with Baptist churches as a whole. It is a growing and still developing body, looking at our previous fathers of the faith and scripture. And perhaps it is not as systematically categorized as I thought, which was helpful thing to realize in the audio clip posted to the string. If we want to talk about the difference between the Presbyterian model of church government with the RB view in I would suggest we start that thread up sometime here soon, that way brother Josh and tell us what he really thinks about RB.

And Bill, great response.

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David Jolley
Currently SBC, may change
Confessions: 1680-SLBCF/ 2000-BFAM
Escondido, CA

I read it, I did not miss it. Respectfully, anecdotal experiences does not mean that such examples will be by-and-in-large followed.
Friend, my tradition has always been baptistic up until a few years ago, so there's no blinding or lack of open-mindedness going on, though I appreciate your desire to admonish me.
No offense, Sir, but my criticisms have not been placed on the development of associations; rather, they have been directed toward Baptist ecclesiology and polity. I rejoice that there is some semblance of connectional associating going on. I just wish it'd go all the way and become presbyterial in form. I can say that I don't really appreciate the implication that Presbyterians believing Baptist ecclesiology to be wrong are like the Sanhedrin. I certainly wouldn't make that implication toward you. My beliefs are not some blind tradition bled down, but ones that I believe to be of Divine Right. However, I have no desire to further sidetrack this thread, since it should've been amongst Baptists in the first place. So I suggest be very careful of implying that your Christian brethren are "opposing God" in the same manner that the Sanhedrin was opposing God. Apples and oranges, Brother.
It is not the model that is the problem, but the hearts of men who are carrying out the model. I would by no means call these men infallible, and recognize that church history shows stains from Presbyterians and Baptists alike.
And no orthodox Reformed Presbyterian would assert otherwise, but we do believe in Christ's visible kingdom here on earth and that the keys have been given to shepherds in order to rightly facilitate ecclesiastical matters.
Friend, structures and models don't prevent or cause anything. Rather, the men who are either enforcing or not enforcing said structures are the ones responsible.
The differences have been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. As for what I think about RBs, well I'm sure that all my RB brethren here can tell you.

FWIW I purposely put this thread in this forum so all could interact. There are many learned Presbyterians who have an in depth knowledge of Baptist ecclesiology and could add much value to the discussion.

Bob,

I'm not disputing the issue of boards (as defined in your post). ARBCA affiliation in no way transfers the functions of the church to an ecclesiastical hierarchy. ARBCA's only authority is accepting, rejecting, or dismissing a church from membership.

Josh, I don’t think it matters if you been a Presbyterians 3 years or 10. We can still be blinded by our traditions. As James White has said many time, “Those who do not recognize their traditions are the most enslaved by them.” I this that a major difference between fundamentalist Baptist and reformed Baptist as the fact we recognize what our traditions that guide us instead of just crying out Scripture alone, as if their theological backgrounds are not at play.
Are you saying Baptist do not believe Christ has a visible/spiritual kingdom on earth and the keys have been given to the pastors to “rightly facilitate ecclesiastical matters”?
I do agree that the responsible must be placed in those enforcing certain structures, however I do find it interesting how certain systems has their own particular brand of trouble, just as rise of fundamentalism by the Baptist and the rise of German Higher criticism as promoted by Union Seminary . Where one side takes an anti-intellectualism perspective, a no creed but Christ, Presbyterians circles go overboard and from there and go outside and destroy the written word through their intellectual endeavors. RB I think is a move towards a balance of the intellect, teaching church history and systematics, along side with trying to remember the simplicity of the Gospel and that of many scriptural passages. In fact, that may be a reason why some RB churches still seems slightly fundamental, because of their own historical roots and as they mature certain aspects of that as a church should fad away; such as issues like drinking.

I still trying to remain to the point of this thread and that specifying the difference between PB and other Baptist Churches. So please do not see this as a personal attack.

Absolutely same experience - visited an older daughter and son-in-law's Baptist church in Charleston SC, with a Reformed Baptist pastor. The quotations in the service bulletin, and used in the service, from John Owen, Valley of Vision prayers, Spurgeon, etc., were enough to make most pca folks around my place blush. We even had a sermon at our pca church recently with one comment being how the Spurgeon way of preaching wouldn't address our culture now.

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Warren
Member, PCA
South Carolina

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek"
Romans 1:16

I have had a chance to visit several of the Arbca churches and have been encouraged with what is taking place.
Some other reformed baptist churches stay seperate from any association.
the ArBCA website posts sermons from there general meetings.
Any of you brethren in SC, who want to get a better handle on it,you can visit Bob Selph in Taylors, or the PB 's own DR.Bob Gonzales in Easley.
Many of the RB works are small assemblies. Most all would desire to have a plurality of elders. Most all are spoken against by the other baptist churches in the area .
I have interacted with some baptist pastors on sermonaudio, who speak against the grace of God saying we are aligning ourselves with the padeo's and Calvin as if it were a wicked thing. They made some ad-homeinm attacks and told me I needed to understand baptist history .
If no Rb church is in an area, I would be more comfortable in any of the Padeo churches represented here on the PB than in some of these fundementalist type church's.
On the downside some of the members in the RB church's who are regular attenders have come out of other backrounds and might not have as good a grasp of the RB distinctives as they should.
Another characteristic of RB's is they have many Puritan's and padeo books in their library,and enjoy the help and teaching in them where the arminian types avoid these writings as error.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

To keep it to the original question.

the difference between reformed baptist and "regular" baptists is obviously the "reformed" part.

Seeing that there are only two major schools of theology, reformed and dispensational, regular baptists who are not reformed are usually dispensational.

Although reformed baptists hold to the 5 points, dispensationalists may or may not hold to any or all of the 5 points, as dispensationalisism has no requirement in its theology for any of the points. I've experienced both sides as I was in a dispensational church, a reformed baptist church, and am now currently PCA and happily married to a RB while going to a dispensational baptist college (yeah, big mistake, i know!)

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Nathan Riese
Under Care, PCA
Trinity Presbyterian Church, Aledo, Illinois
Current student at MBBC
Future student of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary
www.gpts.edu

John Piper is a perfect example of a Calvinistic Baptist who is not Reformed. What makes Reformed Baptists different than their Calvinistic brethren is confessionalism. The 1644 and 1689 LBC's provide a distinct direction towards Puritanism and the Reformation. John MacArthur, while not officially a Baptist, is Baptistic. He's not Reformed in that he still holds to dispensationalism and is not confessional.

Our PCA church is "cool" about ten years ago we started singing three "worship praise songs" before the invocation. Most of the families that pushed for this addition have left but we still do it "because that's what we (the session) decided to do."

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Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.