Does anyone think that there will be catholicity in the visible church again? Or do you think that it is not important?
If you believe the Church will be re-unified, how soon do you think it could be accomplished?

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Brandon Addison

Member- Michiana Covenant Presbyterian Church
Granger, IN (http://www.michianacovenant.org/)

Attending and serving the youth @- Christ Church Pasadena Pasadena, CA (www.christchurch.la)

Is catholicity a word or a spoonerism?

When in glory the elect will cease with the bickering and the finer points of theology that we either missed or were ignorant about will be stripped away and covered by the grace of God.

I see no grand unification in the worldly life however.

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Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

haha well I don't even know what a spoonerism is.... sounds like a greasy restraunt...

By catholicity, I am trying to talk about a unified church... I cannot think of another time in history when the church has been so divided! For example, look at all the Reformed denominations in Presbyterianism! Now I don't see anything wrong with doctrinal disagreement, but there needs to be a unification of the Church, in order for it to be One, True, Holy, and Apostolic Church.

It just grieves me so much... It causes a longing for that day when all the elect will be united in Christ. But at the same time, IMHO, we ought to be working towards catholicity.

I'd say that is a healthy longing, to know you are not of this world and this dying kingdom.

A spoonerism is a literary term that references a coined phrase or word.

Great topic!

But the visible church is in a sense already catholic.

WCF 25:2 The visible church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which their is no ordinary possibility of salvation.

And I do believe the unity of the Catholic church will be restored. This is why the national establishment of the church is so important! Christians should be more careful not to rupture the body of Christ. Some have advocated that we should not separate from a church unless something sinful is required as a term of communion with her. Under what conditions do you think christians can legitimately separate from a church?

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*Peter Gray* Elkins Park RPCNA

"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. " Mk 9:24
"The greatest thing we can desire, next to the glory of God, is our own salvation; and the sweetest thing we can desire is the assurance of our salvation. In this life we cannot get higher than to be assured of that which in the next life is to be enjoyed. All saints shall enjoy a heaven when they leave this earth; some saints enjoy a heaven while they are here on earth." Joseph Caryl

The various denominations, and the vaunted boasts of some churches to be the "only true visible church" (even if only within one geographic region), actually don't really tell us anything about the unity of the church.

Take for example RC or EO church(es). Within those bodies with single, or geographic "presence", there is a cacophany of dissent and division underneath the outward, visible unity. Really, the RCs won't even put people out of their church anymore, because if they did that too often they'd soon have many more rival Roman communions (more so than they have today, and they DO have them today). Once they stopped being able to have the civil authorities despatch their heretics, they soon stopped excommunicating. Just look at the time they have with their homo/pedo priests! They can't (won't) discipline anybody. So, as long as people obey the human authority of the church, swear allegiance to the pope, they can believe and teach whatever they want. If it isn't "official" teaching with an imprimatur, these days an RC can promulgate just about anything, with the caveat: "Of course, this isn't the official church-line."

The EOs seem like they just talk in vague generalities anyway, and so avoid making virtually any doctrinal committments. Do their churches even have a catechism, or catechisms? Since their iconodules overturned the iconoclasts' 7th Eccumenical Synod, and replaced it with an opposite ruling 7th Eccumenical Synod, Nicaea 2 (and started calling the previous synod a "local affair") they've just avoided doctrinal statements. So, these groups (east & west) have two different approaches to unity. But they both end up in the same place: outward unity, inner turmoil.

Believers in Christ have more in common with one another, regardless of affiliation, than the pope has with Hans Kung. I have more in common with a typical Reformed Baptist than I do with a typical PCUSA member. There is unity in all the church with respect to the truth of God's Word, remarkable unity really. Which means that really and truly, Jesus prayer has been heard and answered, and it is still being answered today, and we ought to expect further evidence of it (however that may look) in the future.

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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Rev. Buchanan

I agree with much of what you have said. I am not seeking unity without any doctrinal firmness, but at the same time, we ought to be working to seek out unity in our differences.

My pastor, Peter Wallace, who is on the OPC board for ecumenicism, has proposed (not his orignial idea mind you) that there be a General Assembly that has denom's like the ARP, CRC, PCA, OPC, RPCNA, URC, etc all in it. They can mantain their doctrinal distinctives but they will be apart of the GA. The Westminister Confession must be adhered to for joining the GA.

IMHO, this is a start to bringing catholicity back to the church...