We all agree - hopefully - that women should not be officers in the church. Next question: can women teach men at other functions?

For example, Joni Erickson Tada spoke at Ligonier. Albert Martin, RC Sproul, John McArthur seemed to have no problem with that. Kay Arthur also has. Can a women speak at a conferecne and be encouraging from God's word. Does that pose a problem with 1 Tim. 2 or Titus' instructions about women?

Pastors - what do you think of this? Its an important question a friend asked.

I said I would say it is wrong based on the reality that women were teaching men.

And what of this?

Acts 18:26, "So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, [b:fbb3f228ce]they[/b:fbb3f228ce] took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately."

Let me enlarge the question: I want to go to Peru to teach the pastors there about God and His attributes. I [b:fbb3f228ce]JUST[/b:fbb3f228ce] found out that the man in control of the conferecne is having his wife speak twice out of 12 sessions to the pastors.
(Josh - this is something to think about in terms of being able to support that conferecne.)

Would you say this is wrong - speaking to pastors in a "non-church" setting?

Why or why not?

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by webmaster]

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[quote:bc768ee742][i:bc768ee742]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:bc768ee742]
We all agree - hopefully - that women should not be officers in the church. Next question: can women teach men at other functions?

For example, Joni Erickson Tada spoke at Ligonier. Albert Martin, RC Sproul, John McArthur seemed to have no problem with that. Kay Arthur also has. Can a women speak at a conferecne and be encouraging from God's word. Does that pose a problem with 1 Tim. 2 or Titus' instructions about women?

Pastors - what do you think of this? Its an important question a friend asked.

I said I would say it is wrong based on the reality that women were teaching men.

And what of this?

Acts 18:26, "So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, [b:bc768ee742]they[/b:bc768ee742] took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately."

Let me enlarge the question: I want to go to Peru to teach the pastors there about God and His attributes. I [b:bc768ee742]JUST[/b:bc768ee742] found out that the man in control of the conferecne is having his wife speak twice out of 12 sessions to the pastors.
(Josh - this is something to think about in terms of being able to support that conferecne.)

Would you say this is wrong - speaking to pastors in a "non-church" setting?

Why or why not?

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by webmaster] [/quote:bc768ee742]

I was at Ligoniers when Joni spoke. Hers was more of a testimony. She was not, what I would call, [i:bc768ee742]teaching[/i:bc768ee742].

In the Acts passage, Priscilla is mentioned in light of her husband and their combined effort in explaining the things of God. Assuredly, she was comfortable supporting the effort of her faithful husband.

I see no reason why the woman have to step up to the plate when there are plenty of men whom need to.
:wr50:

__________________
Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Okay, let's narrow the question down so that it fits Ligonier as well as the conferecne I am considering bowing out of at this point:

Can a women get up behind the pulpit and talk to men in a para-church setting? Can she give a testimony, or encourage them from the Bible in ANY WAY in this capacity?

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by webmaster]

Though I am not a pastor, I'd still like to submit my input on this topic because I'm hoping that it could prove helpful or useful.

As far as women speaking at a conference, whether it be the Ligonier Ministry conference, or especially the one down at Peru, I can't see why this shouldn't be permitted. Since this is not "Church" per se, but more a gathering of church people, I don't see a conflict with Paul's instruction. What if this woman, the Pastor's wife in Peru, wants to address the people about what it takes for a godly wife to support her husband, etc., etc.? There are a number of topics a woman can address that could encourage and strengthen the congregation without necessarily setting herself up as a "teacher" of the brethren (and in this case I'm confusing the topic a bit because we have just established its not "Church.&quot

Perhaps the factor that should be considered above all else is the subject of the woman's address. If it is an exposition of God's Holy Word, then perhaps she should show deference to a man whether it is or isn't in a Church setting, unless of course her audience is all women.

Since women have so much to offer and can bring to the table such insight of life and godly wisdom, it would be a shame to silence them and not have them contribute to the life of the people publicly in such an assembly. I don't think that is what God is calling His Church leadership to uphold in instances such as "women should remain silent" or "not teach a man."

__________________
Christopher Hinton
Northland, A Church Distributed;
Altamonte Springs, FL

Well, in I Timothy there's no context demanding that Paul was talking about in a church. However, in I Cor, Paul specifically says Churches. I just don't know, but would lean toward no teaching of other men. period.

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[quote:c87612b6fd][i:c87612b6fd]Originally posted by alwaysreforming[/i:c87612b6fd]
Though I am not a pastor, I'd still like to submit my input on this topic because I'm hoping that it could prove helpful or useful.

As far as women speaking at a conference, whether it be the Ligonier Ministry conference, or especially the one down at Peru, I can't see why this shouldn't be permitted. Since this is not "Church" per se, but more a gathering of church people, I don't see a conflict with Paul's instruction. What if this woman, the Pastor's wife in Peru, wants to address the people about what it takes for a godly wife to support her husband, etc., etc.? There are a number of topics a woman can address that could encourage and strengthen the congregation without necessarily setting herself up as a "teacher" of the brethren (and in this case I'm confusing the topic a bit because we have just established its not "Church.&quot

Perhaps the factor that should be considered above all else is the subject of the woman's address. If it is an exposition of God's Holy Word, then perhaps she should show deference to a man whether it is or isn't in a Church setting, unless of course her audience is all women.

Since women have so much to offer and can bring to the table such insight of life and godly wisdom, it would be a shame to silence them and not have them contribute to the life of the people publicly in such an assembly. I don't think that is what God is calling His Church leadership to uphold in instances such as "women should remain silent" or "not teach a man." [/quote:c87612b6fd]

AR writes:
"Since this is not "Church" per se, but more a gathering of church people"

And this:
"and in this case I'm confusing the topic a bit because we have just established its not "Church."

When the church gathers, it does not have to be necessarily referring to a local assembly. For instance, when the people of the ligonier conference meet, is it not "the church" gathering? The idea that woman should keep silent is not solely for the Lords day alone.

I agree that the topic is the issue. I do not believe it would be profitable for men to sit under a woman expressing the trials of womanhood or wifery. These topics are for woman.

Matt Asks:
"Can a women get up behind the pulpit and talk to men in a para-church setting? Can she give a testimony, or encourage them from the Bible in ANY WAY in this capacity?"

Matt, I say, it depends on the topic. If it borders upon her [i:c87612b6fd]teaching[/i:c87612b6fd] men or could be construed as teaching, I would say, no.

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by Scott Bushey]

It is my understanding that the passages in question address women taking on an authoratative role within the church teaching the Word. This would include acting as an elder, pastor, or teaching men in a Bible study class. These things are clearly forbidden by Scripture.

Priscilla was in private along side her husband explaining the Scriptures to Apollos. It was more personal discipleship. She did not address Apollos in front of the congregation and she and her husband were not co-pastors in the church!

We need to ask a few questions about the conference to understand the role women will be playing.

Is it sponsired by a church as a ministry to pastors? It is under the direct oversight of a group of elders or is it truly para-church, just a group of Christians meeting for a conference or workshops?

Also it might be helpful to know what the pastor's wife in question will be saying/teaching/presenting at the conference.

If she will be giving Biblical instruction to pastors then no, that should not be allowed. If it is testimony or encouragement or some other kind of presentation then I think that is fine. But as soon as you stand to teach the Word, you are taking a position of authority, and this is reserved for men.

I have not ever heard of Joni actually teaching, or giving instruction from the Word. She usually gives a testimony and shows the application of Scripture to life, but she does not [i:5960cf39a0]teach[/i:5960cf39a0] unless it is only women present.

I know at some conferences for pastors a wife will speak to give insight to the role of being a pastors wife to give understanding to the men in dealing with their wives and families as they continue in ministry. We men are prone to get tunnel vision and forget at times the toll of ministry on our families. Usually though the pastors wives are there in attendance with their husbands and she addresses them in a separate "lesson". This is fine too.

So what will she be doing? And how is the conference structured? What are the beliefs of this pastor and his wife regarding women's roles in the church?

Phillip

__________________
Pastor Phillip M. Way
[url=http://www.timeintheword.org][color=blue] Maranatha Community Church of Central Texas[/color][/url]
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But we readily admit that the PB is not a church or denomination. It is more like a conference call with multimedia capabilities!



Phillip

[quote:8309ea7711][i:8309ea7711]Originally posted by paul manata[/i:8309ea7711]
women have good things to say.

I would say that the context is that a women ought not be in a [i:8309ea7711]position of authority[/i:8309ea7711] over the man (in church).

And, I would be careful, this could get defined too stricktly that we would be saying that women shouldn't post on the Puritanboard:wr50:

-Paul [/quote:8309ea7711]

Paul,
We are not [i:8309ea7711]physically[/i:8309ea7711] gathering here as representatives. I believe the exhortations refer to when we gather together as a church. This discussion board cannot be mistaken as that type of gathering. No bread being broke here Paul!

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by Scott Bushey]

In 1 Cor. 11 I believe it's implied that women can vocally pray or prophesy IF she wears a headcovering. Is it alright for women to speak if there is a covering on their head?

(For the sake of not getting side-tracked discussion let's presume that a covering includes both a covering OR hair.)

__________________
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AKA Professor Plum

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[quote:4941924909][i:4941924909]Originally posted by paul manata[/i:4941924909]
[quote:4941924909][i:4941924909]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:4941924909]
But we readily admit that the PB is not a church or denomination. It is more like a conference call with multimedia capabilities!



Phillip [/quote:4941924909]

well, do you think Ligonier is a church or a denomination???

that's why I was saying...be carefull

-Paul

p.s. btw, how you doin Pastor Way? [/quote:4941924909]


Paul, I may be wrong, but wouldn't this be an example of the universal body gathering (Many church bodies in one place).

I see no problem with a woman praying in the church. We would have to define prophecy though as it relates to this issue.

Phillip

-- and by the Way, Paul, I am doing okay! Keep praying that I get a job ( "secular" )though!!! Things are tight and we are behind financially.......then again, aren't most of us?!?

Paul, I was not referring to "different denoms", but the presbyterian assembly.

Maybe that is secondary......It would all depend upon why they were meeting at the 7-eleven.

Paul,
That is what I meant when I said it was "secondary". I was pondering the idea Paul........cut me some slack my professorial pal!:grin:

Coffee and God talk.....no pastor teaching. Not the church gathering; sorry!

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by Scott Bushey]

[quote:d1bf0a6d37][i:d1bf0a6d37]Originally posted by paul manata[/i:d1bf0a6d37]
[quote:d1bf0a6d37][i:d1bf0a6d37]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:d1bf0a6d37]
Paul,
That is what I meant when I said it was "secondary". I was pondering the idea Paul........cut me some slack my professorial pal!:grin:

Coffee and God talk.....no pastor teaching. Not the church gathering; sorry!

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by Scott Bushey] [/quote:d1bf0a6d37]

hey, I an cutting you slack

now, what if 3 of the 15 were pastors?

-Paul [/quote:d1bf0a6d37]

There's another PB typo for the list!!!

Are they officially organized? In other words, are they there by chance or reason?

Maybe I'm asking a question that has already been asked here but i just didn't understand it...well you know how we women can be uzzled: j/k...

whats that? sarcasm isn't a fruit of the Holy Spirit?????

MY QUESTION ISSSSS.....

So if physically a mixed group (male and female) was at a starbucks discussing sayyy....paedo v. credo or something - would it be wrong for the women to be involved in the discussion? would they only be allowed to ask questions?

I'm just curious what yall think...i mean - of course I think that in an informal discussion women are free to discuss these things...but I wonder if I'm in the minority on the board here...

__________________
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Member, Tampa Covenant Church
Tampa, FL

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and can never know it too well or too closely. True love to Christ thinks of Him from morning till night; it is glad to be released from other thoughts that it may follow only its one darling pursuit."

- C.H. Spurgeon

I have thought about this before, especially as regards whether it is right for me to post on the board.

The first passage (let the women keep silence in the churches, or the assemblies) clearly prohibits me from addressing the church met for worship. This is part of the regulative principle, I think.

Then there is a restriction on woman teaching, that is given in a context of men praying publicly, and- it seems- of a woman "dressing up." So it is a context of public prayer, at least.
Does anyone know if there is a formal idea behind the word "teach"?

If not, then I don't think there is any problem with a give and take discussion like on the puritan board. I am not usurping authority over the moderators or anybody to present an opinion-- I am not in a formal position at all: I am a common peon. Nobody even has to read my post. The moderators can delete it if it is out of line. I have no "authority" here. Whereas a woman standing up to address an audience has a certain amount of authority over them because of the formal position she is in. I think that is what Paul is objecting to-- a woman in that position for the purpose of religious instruction, in a gathering where prayer is offered.

So, I know it is wrong for me to have the floor in a worship service, but I don't know if it is wrong for me to have the floor in a meeting that is not a worship service, if I am not going to be teaching doctrine.

I think I would be uncomfortable speaking in any religious setting where my husband would feel uncomfortable interrupting or qualifying me-- which is basically the difference between a formal and informal setting, for me: but I do think a testimony is different than doctrinal instruction. It is more like Miriam and the women singing in front of the men in celebration, than like a woman standing behind the alter and performing the sacrifices-- which would have been absolutely heinous.




[Edited on 3-25-2004 by a mere housewife]

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This is the KEY:

"I think I would be uncomfortable speaking in any religious setting where my husband would feel uncomfortable interrupting or qualifying me-- which is basically the difference between a formal and informal setting, for me: but I do think a testimony is different than doctrinal instruction. It is more like Miriam and the women singing in front of the men in celebration, than like a woman standing behind the alter and performing the sacrifices-- which would have been absolutely heinous. "

Very well said. Most excellent.

You gals are great on the PB and would be great at Starbucks, too! You are right on as far as I can tell in what you are saying.

(you might verify that with your husbands/fathers........) hehehe

Phillip

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the distinct impression that I'm not welcome to opine here. Never mind if I'm right or I know the Scriptures as well as anybody or I bring up points nobody thought of. I'm female, and therefore I must be deceived. Or something. That really hurts, guys! I don't happen to have a husband. I don't see any Scriptural warrant for submitting to men in general. This undercurrent of misogyny is the worst part of Reformed churches. God made me smart in the absence of a husband. So I guess I'm stupid still, and don't deserve to be heard. Well, ya'all need to look at 1Cor12:11. Then tell the Holy Spirit that you think He wouldn't give a woman any knowledge worth having, even if it's for the edification of the Body of Christ. That really hurts, guys! None of you are my husband or pastor, nor are you elders or deacons in my church. Why should I submit to you? Granted, you have provided me with a wealth of knowledge in a short time. But I'm not your Mrs. And sometimes I think some of you are frivolous, distracted from the point, or (dare I say it?) wrong.

__________________
Melissa Brown
Evansville, Indiana
Looking for a body of believers to hook up with
"It is better to be divided by truth than to be united in error. It is better to speak the truth that hurts and heals, than falsehood that comforts and then kills. Let me tell you something, friend, it is not love and it is not friendship if we fail to declare the whole counsel of God. It is better to be hated for telling the truth, than to be loved for telling a lie. It is impossible to find anyone in the Bible who was a power for God who did not have enemies and was not hated. It's better to stand alone with the truth, than to be wrong with a multitude. It is better to ultimately succeed with the truth than to temporarily succeed with a lie. There is only one Gospel and Paul said, 'If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.'"
Pastor Adrian Rodgers, excerpts from talk, Nat'l Religious Broadcasters Convention, 1996

Phillip, if you ever refer to us as "gals" again, I will personally light your stogie.:flaming:



[Edited on 3-25-2004 by mjbee]

Matthew,
I can imagine how difficult a decision this must be for you to make, considering the need you've expressed of the pastors in Peru and knowing their hunger and desire to learn more about the reformed teachings.

I hope you'll have an opportunity to speak to the man in charge about this ASAP. Hopefully you can explain your position to him and perhaps he'll not have his wife speak at the gathering as planned.

You had planned to go and teach the pastors about the reformed faith. Maybe this is just an opportunity to do some "pre-conference teaching" about one element of the reformed faith - the regulative principle.

Just my :wr50:,
Bob

__________________
Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Originally posted by mjbee:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the distinct impression that I'm not welcome to opine here.

S: Now, You know that's not true.


Never mind if I'm right or I know the Scriptures as well as anybody or I bring up points nobody thought of. I'm female, and therefore I must be deceived.

S: No one said that. However,

1 Pet 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

S: Are [i:30699e092f]woman[/i:30699e092f] weaker vessels? Do not mistake our intention. It is not to imply that you are devalued or handicapped.


Or something. That really hurts, guys! I don't happen to have a husband. I don't see any Scriptural warrant for submitting to men in general.

S: The general harmony of the scriptures is "woman are to submit". Most of the scenario's identify w/ married couples. Do you believe that since there are no scenario's that specifically address single woman that the items mentioned for married woman are not for single woman of God also? As Phillip mentioned, if not your husband, your father, your pastor, the elders, deacons etc.

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

S: I think the key word here is [i:30699e092f]obedient[/i:30699e092f]. I do not believe the term is to be understood like a young child is told to be obedient.

1 Pet 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
1 Pet 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1 Pet 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

S: My two cents: Paul is describing a woman who is less than bold. She is reserved.


This undercurrent of misogyny is the worst part of Reformed churches.

S: I believe this is your misinterpretation. The reformed men I know, coddle their woman. They have b