Do these verses suggest that a large number of Jews will turn to Christ after the 'fulness of the gentiles has come in'?

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent." John Calvin

John from Scotland
Denomination: Attending Baptist church
Confessional Subscription:London Baptist Confession
Blog: [url]www.three-streams.co.uk[/url]

The Westminster Divines thought so.

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Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary

There will be a complete number of God's elect.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

I believe that massive numbers of Jews will come to Christ before the end. Fits in well with my postmillinial eschatology.

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"I was found by those who did not seek me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for me." Romans 10:20b

Angela Asano
Edwardsville, IL
Member, Center Grove Presbyterian Church - PCA

"History never repeats itself, but it rhymes." - Mark Twain

Amil Kim Riddlebarger sees an influx before the end.

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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The answer is a definite maybe.

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Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

It'll happen. There is a lot of consensus on this. To a small extent it's happening already with the Messianic Jewish movement.

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

On another note, I've heard the interpretation that the Ishmaelite(Arabic) nations will experience a great revival, which will "inspire Israel to jealousy" and then result in many converts from both sides. Interesting thought.

I think the more difficult question is will the harvest of the Jewish people be vividly punctuated or more of a simultaneous gathering over time?

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Michael Turner
Christ Reformed Church | Independent [WCF]
Georgia

I think Isreal has a place still in God's end plans, imho

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Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

I think God made it extremely clear He is done with Israel the nation, the land etc.
As for Israel of the promise, the elect, well yes hey will continued to be saved including as Paul says, some who were of Jewish decent.

But He is now fulfilling the promise to Abraham to make him a father of many nations. So Israel was never of the seed according to the flesh, Israel was always that of faith and that is who all those promises were to.

Watch out for that ol scoundrel Scoffield and his buddies who have clouded our thinking.

Hey maybe lots of people who think they have some blood of the 12 patriarchs will be saved but so what? And after the captivity most records were not ever found and most can't prove they were of the lost tribes for sure or most any other.

We don't know who the elect are so we evangelize without preference to all.

Watch out for the Beast, British Israelism is a strong movement.

Why would the question arise seeing God says
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise NKJV

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, NKJV

Rom 4:13
For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17(as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations" NKJV

Rom 9:6
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. NKJV

So there are a certain number of elect descendants of Abraham just as Paul was one and he hold no hope for them other than the same conversion he got.

All Israel shall be saves is all the elect.

You have to watch for how they use Israel whether they are speaking of blood decent or of the elect. The covenant people, or the elect.

It is used in different ways and meanings.

In His Service,

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DonP

No...Jews are those who are so inwardly...and not so outwardly according to the flesh. Those who are of faith, are those of Abraham!

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Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

This is a great question John316 (again).I am still working this one out however this post sounds right and with scripture proofs, is there anyone who's view differs with verses to support thier thoughts? This would have been good as a poll question also

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Brian
Grace Bible Church;E.Bridgewater
East Bridgewater MA
http://www.gracebiblehome.org

Larger Catechism 191

191. What do we pray for in the second petition?

A. In the second petition, (which is, "Thy kingdom come") acknowledges ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the Church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him for ever: and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.

You are right we are Jews who are so inwardly. However, the flesh of ethnic Israel has played a very important part in God's plan of redemption. The crescendo of Romans 9, 10, and especially 11 outline how there is still more in store. Not only are are there promises made but also grave warnings to Gentiles who may boast.

What Jews? There is no pure 100% Jew out there so how can we call them Jews if they are mixed with other ethnicities. Even in 70 Ad their books that kept their record of their bloodline was destroyed and burned up, coincidence? I think not.

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Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus

" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

Interesting. Would you please point me to a resource regarding this matter?

-----Added 3/8/2009 at 02:54:59 EST-----

I notice that the answer doesn't state anything about how the Jews respond to the call. In my mind, that leaves both interpretations open. How have notable Presbyterians interpreted this phrase?

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Bryan Peters
Providence Reformed Church (URCNA)
Des Moines, Iowa

Doctrinal truth should be preached always, openly, without compromise, and never dissembled or concealed. There is no offence in it; it is the staff of uprightness.
~Martin Luther~

I'm not 100% of Caucasian origin either. Yet I'm called a Caucasian.

Isn't there a reference in the OT to the issue of incorporating Gentile blood into the Jewish nation? I can't remember...

If we are to reach Sundanese, Tunisians, Romanians with the Gospel, i.e., target every ethno-linguistic group with the Gospel, then are not the Jews to be considered a distinct ethno-linguistic group which we are to target? Who cares about the political state...missions-wise, the Jews in that region represent an unreached cluster of people. If we are granted Gospel success, then this will indeed be a glorious harvest

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

There seems to have been a little confusion. Some have thought, I think, that I am speaking of Zionism or dispensationalism. I'm not. I'm just asking if these verse teach that some (a significant amount) who are 'natural' Israel will come to believe in Christ prior to Christs return?

Thank you for reminding us of the Catechism. Being a more strict and extreme Creedalist as I tend to be, I agree with that loose statement and pray for the salvation of all men, those called Jews, Romans, Gentiles, Chinese etc.
Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, NKJV

1 Tim 2:1Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. NKJV

I speculate there may have been some influenced by a Zionist idea so this minimal statement was included as a compromise and to make sure no one would think there necessarily was a large influx of Jews coming so as to bias our evangelistic efforts with prejudice to one race or country more than others. I see it as more regulative and restrictive than adding to this concept

Now whatever the following verses mean they do not mean God is partial to the Jews, just because the Gospel first came through them.
Rom 2:9-12
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law NKJV

In fact it seems to set us all on equal ground. Whether having heard the law or not you will be judged accordingly.

It is good that some have said we hold no dispensational hope for such a revival in Israel that would lead to rebuilding of the temple, a national Israel state set up and a return to sacrifices, all which, esp. the sacrifices would be an abomination to God, and a denial of Christ and not a revival of the true faith. This is one of the deeps heresies and misunderstanding of the dispensationals that show they have no sound understanding of the gospel or the history of redemption. The see the church as some separate parenthesis in God's dealing with the nation and national people and fleshly seed of Abraham and ignore the wider blessing and fulfillment of the unfolding and eventual promise and covenant to make Abraham the father of many nations. They ignore scriptures saying the promise was never to the fleshly seed. See below.

As said in a previous post, the Jewish lineage was lost, two tribes completely, it is now a fabricated made up lineage for a few who claim it, and the rest were lost to a great extent, most intermarried with Babylonians, and few could call themselves pure Jews and trace a genealogy back to Biblical Jews.

And if it was the case these JEws were to continue to trace their genealogy to show their grandchildren as being some of these Jews, why would we be told. 1 Tim 1:4... charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. NKJV

Seems they should have continued keeping genealogies if there was to be an influx of Jews and we needed to know it. I know God doesn't need it, but if there is no Jew in human eyes then the concept is meaningless anyway, and if we simply mean people who have chosen to live in Israel with some Jewish blood decent... well what would be the point?

God's love for the Jews is that He is in the business of fulfilling His promise to Abraham in making him a father of Israel from all races now. A spiritual Israel of all races, the House of Israel of faith not the fleshly descendants. Jews and Gentiles alike. Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." NKJV

I don't know what could be more clear?
Rom 9:6-8
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. NKJV

The children of the flesh are not the Jews God was talking about, referring to, promises made to. Future anything to. Not the children of the flesh!! These aren't even real Jews or real Israel. They were the type the shadow of real Israel, The believers are Israel the real people of God, of all races of all ages.

So if it never was the fleshly descendants then why at the end of the world would it all of a sudden be about some fleshly descendants??

Please, be careful with the word, Jew and Israel, they are used interchangeably and without much notice as Paul knew in his mind what he meant. Sometimes fleshly descendants maybe, sometimes covenant people in the OT, sometimes covenant people as in visible church, sometimes true invisible elect.


The reason for writing this was to prevent an anti-Semitic feeling and give up all hope for Israel. Paul seems to have, and gone to the Gentiles. Should we hate the Jews since they persecute us and they crucified Christ and they oppose us? Should we not bother to witness to them at all because God is so clearly done with Israel the nation and people?
In response to these things, in this context, Paul writes that they are still as any other heathen, no better no different, but still some remnant of them may be converted just as he was. No differently, no special age for it. But the Jew of the flesh have not been utterly banished or cut off from having a chance to convert now.

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. NKJV

Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. NKJV

So Paul does not tell us here, the perfect place, that there will be some future revival of Jews. He says God is still converting Jews. That is all no more. In following verses he says
Would heir fullness be nice? Or more of them converted. Or the full number of elect Jews is the fullness, how ever many or few that is. And he says he hopes to provoke them to jealousy so some will believe. he holds no hope a bunch will at some time in the future.
He hopes some will now.
Their blindness has partly happened to force the spread of the message to the Gentile world, ie. me, I Paul went to the Gentiles and left Jerusalem. Yes he still speaks in synagogues, but calls himself a minister to the Gentiles.

And so what if a lot of Jews convert at some time int he future? It is certainly not all Jews being saved, for many have already died in their sins for centuries? So the fullness of the Jews will come in, as many as were ordained to eternal life, today as Paul says, or tomorrow, but what do I have to do with that?
As Paul we should be about getting the message to all, esp those who have not heard it, they had the prophets and even Jesus rebukes them for not believing them.

But given that this zionist dispensational view is not what someone has in mind, and they think there is some post-millenial hope that a lot of people who either live in a nation called Israel or some group of people who have some partial blood decendency from Abraham will be converted, fine, I hope they are right on all counts.

I just hope it is truly based on some inference they see in the word, and has nothing to do with dispensational influence, or human partiality for a reason they think a lot of Jews would be saved.

This indeed is covenant theology. I just love what God did through this covenant!!
In His Service,

I think there will be a massive harvest of every nation before Christ comes if that is what He chooses to do. I still don't understand why we separate the Jews from the rest of the world when talking about "end times".

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

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Toni Cunningham, Wife of Bill (Theognome)
Parkwoods OPC, Overland Park KS

"Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, As, to be hated, needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace." ~ Alexander Pope

The belief that the Jews will en masse come to Christ before the end is FAR older than dispensationalism (as Nathan has pointed out), so no, don't think that those of us who believe this are closet dispensationalists. We were there first!!!

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Johnathan Tate
Cornerstone Presbyterian Church (OPC), Arden, NC

Husband of one, father of 3 (1 in-utero); Time's "Man of the Year" 2006

It seems to me that the word 'Jew' does not have the same connotation today as it did 2000 years ago. Paul's audience would have understood 'Jew' to either refer to a direct descendant of Jacob or a Christian. If he refers to a harvest of 'direct descendants of Jacob', then how will we know when it happens? For all I know, I could be a direct descendant of Jacob.

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/


"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


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Well if you would spend more time doing your endless genealogy instead of lurking here we would all know ??

These young pups, idealistic and haven't read enough Josephus and history. Claiming to be a Jew is a good way to get a minority benefit. If your stuck in freezing Siberia and you can get an emotional dispensationalist to buy you a plane ticket to Israel, where you will be taken care of by a new state govt. which was seeking to establish itself, it was a good deal.

Right, if God wanted to make sure we all knew He was going to save a bunch of descendants of the 12 tribes, He would have made sure to preserve the genealogies so they would know and could prove their lineage.
What part Descendant must one be to qualify for being a part of this fullness of the Jews. 1/16 or ??
And what is the purpose of this? To show God still loves the fleshly descendants, or would He somehow be unfaithful to His promise if He didn't? What would be the purpose of me knowing this?

AMEN to the Massive Harvest of every tongue, tribe and people!!!


Jesus shall reign where’er the sun
Does his successive journeys run;
His kingdom stretch from shore to shore,
Till moons shall wax and wane no more.

Behold the islands with their kings,
And Europe her best tribute brings;
From north to south the princes meet,
To pay their homage at His feet.

There Persia, glorious to behold,
There India shines in eastern gold;
And barb’rous nations at His word
Submit, and bow, and own their Lord.

To Him shall endless prayer be made,
And praises throng to crown His head;
His Name like sweet perfume shall rise
With every morning sacrifice.

People and realms of every tongue
Dwell on His love with sweetest song;
And infant voices shall proclaim
Their early blessings on His Name.

Blessings abound wherever He reigns;
The prisoner leaps to lose his chains;
The weary find eternal rest,
And all the sons of want are blessed.

Where He displays His healing power,
Death and the curse are known no more:
In Him the tribes of Adam boast
More blessings than their father lost.

Let every creature rise and bring
Peculiar honors to our King;
Angels descend with songs again,
And earth repeat the loud amen!

Great God, whose universal sway
The known and unknown worlds obey,
Now give the kingdom to Thy Son,
Extend His power, exalt His throne.

The scepter well becomes His hands;
All Heav’n submits to His commands;
His justice shall avenge the poor,
And pride and rage prevail no more.

With power He vindicates the just,
And treads th’oppressor in the dust:
His worship and His fear shall last
Till hours, and years, and time be past.

As rain on meadows newly mown,
So shall He send his influence down:
His grace on fainting souls distills,
Like heav’nly dew on thirsty hills.

The heathen lands, that lie beneath
The shades of overspreading death,
Revive at His first dawning light;
And deserts blossom at the sight.

The saints shall flourish in His days,
Dressed in the robes of joy and praise;
Peace, like a river, from His throne
Shall flow to nations yet unknown.

The term "Jew" originally only described a descendant of the house of Judah.
Therefore, all "Jews" are Isrealites, but not all Isrealites are "Jews"

Just thought I would further confuse the issue

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Jeffrey Wilson
Cornerstone Reformed Baptist Church
London Baptist Confession of Faith 1644
Summerland, British Columbia, Canada

"If ever a monk got to heaven by monkery, I ought to have gotten there!" Martin Luther

I haven't read all the responses, but my former pastor explained it this way--

The Gospel Started in Israel and is working it's way around the globe to where it will eventually end back up in Israel, when some Jews will turn to Christ.

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

It did end up back in Israel, the Church, TRUE Israel and if we are true Israel whats the point in going back to the shadow, guys let us leave our dispy tendencies at the door please.......

Bobbi, your pastor ought to come out and join my national co-workers who believe the same thing.

From Jerusalem to the Ends of the Earth; and now the ends of the earth back to Jerusalem has been their theme this year as they have tried to launch their own international missions program.

That verse is the only thing that has kept me with a hints of dispensationalism.



That is so difficult to admit.

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Aaron Josh Wright
Deerbrook Baptist Church, Humble Tx
New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary

Well, all the passage is saying is that national Israel has been blinded (but not all of course) so that the Gentiles can be grafted in hence "the fullness of the gentiles". "until" does not indicate that God will go back to save NATIONAL Israel, it just indicates that that when all God's elect are saved then ALL Israel will be saved. There is no reason to conclude any going back to deal with Israel as a nation at all.

the passage doesn't say "until the fullness of the gentiles come in, AND THEN I WILL SAVE ALL NATIONAL ISRAEL WHEN I REMOVE THE BLINDNESS".

Thats what we insert in the text but is that what it really says? I don't think it does anyways.

I think it says this "when all the elect from all nations is come in then together with the already believing Jews that I have preserved, the remnant, ALL ISRAEL or THE TOTAL CHURCH, shall be saved"

Of course taking into account the other texts as provided by Peacemaker, we can conclude as such.

The Kingdom of Judah included those of Judah, Benjamin (like Paul) and some Levites (like Caiaphas). But there is a purpose for all Scripture

And there is no more hint of excluding Anna than the Roman Centurion from being part of Israel. The idea that a blue eyed Russian that vaguely remembers a Jewish grandma somehow has a bigger part to play than the Palestinian Christians descended from those Jews who converted to Christianity in the first century AD is utterly insane.

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

I tend to agree with you, Tim, except for the 'utterly insane' part. I think those who see a future for ethnic Israel have 'sane' reasons for doing so.

We're talking about people who are so blind that they don't even know what ethnic Israel is. In my example the Palestinian Christian has more genes from Jacob than the Russian.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to all those who believe that Rom 11 teaches a future for ethnic Israel.

That sounds like circular reasoning.

Unless you mean it as Roldan Said.

Please Please, Context context. Jew, Israel, My People, Children of God, House of Israel, House of Judah, Seed of Abraham,

These are all beautifully covenantal terms. Rich in symbology or typology and do not only mean one thing.

You have to check the context in light of clear truth to determine who is being referred to.

Visible Covenant people who get the covenant blessing of being treated like they are God's people,
or invisible elect who actually are God's people.

There is no circle. its a fan. Its starts with Adam - Noah - Abraham - Jacob -then expands to 12 tribes, then national Israel wider and wider yet to all nations. This is the unfolding expanding promise of God to Abraham. He was never to be a father of nation. Many nations. It never ever had anything to do with one nation. It never had to do with only Israel as a nation, but Israel as a visible covenant picture of the invisible covenant people. A subset of all nations.

So Then it would not come back to just the 12 tribes? Why, they are already in and can still join in.
Paul said they are not blocked out now, they can join now as he did.

So there is no blindness stopping children of Jacob now. There is an apparent part blindness on some of them, as there was on Pharoah, so only the elect get it.

Does it make sense that if it was never about national Israel and the descendants of Jacob that it can not be about them again
or later be about them for the 1st time?

It never was about the fleshly descendants so why would it be at the end?

NEVER EVER NEVER - PLEASE, AS ONE POSTED, THIS THINKING KEEPS HIM CONFUSED IN DISPENSATIONAL THINKING
This is a horribly dangerous and confounding belief. Please be open to having it removed. Pray as you read on.

READ THIS VERSE

Rom 9:6-11 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.
he specifically says this to prevent the same error the dispensationals have. Paul replies to those who think cutting off the children of jacob would be wrong or nullify the promise, because they thought the promise was to the children of Jacob, But it wasn't read on

For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are

the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;

did you see this? did you get it?

Please read it again.

the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;

Here is my amplification if i may, Oh you Judaizers and all who think that it was ever about a race, a country, or descendants of Abbraham or Jacob hear this.
The children of the flesh, though, under the covenant were addressed as children of God, but never ever were really the children of God or had any promises made to them, therefore God has not failed them by not giving them anything earthly or eternal. He owes them nothing now or later. No land, no nation, no salvation.

They were never His special people, they were covenant breakers going to hell or they were His loved elect.

The promise never was to the children of natural racial descent, so it doesn't need to come back to them.

It wasn't even for them in the OT and certainly won't be in the NT

It never was for or about the children of Jacob and he proves this by using one child of Jacob as an example to say, see it is not just racial descent it is by election. He could have said it is not Joseph and his sons, it is the elect only who are Jews and the promises are to. The children of promise below, are only the elect

but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."

the elect weren't all really the seed fleshly, but they are counted as the seed and who the promise is to. It is the spiritual seed, the true children of God who Jesus died to redeem who the promises were to

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, NKJV

Easau was to prove it wasn't by natural descent, but by election.
He was as much a natural descendant as Jacob. But God wasn't going by the descent of Abraham, nor the descent of Jacob, nor the Descent of Judah, nor the descent of Barbara Streisand. Its not about any race of people and never was.
Can we now finally put this whole descendants of national racial children of Abraham and Jacob to death?

They were in the visible covenant of jewish people, therefore called jews after the flesh, but many were never in the invisible covenant of elect who actually receive the promises and who the promises were made to. No promise was ever made to a or a group of fleshly jews. God hated those covenant breakers. The non believing fleshy jews accidentally or by common grace if you can tolerate the term, were partakers of the earthy promises only as much as these temporal types came on the elect jews around them. This is the benefit of being a jew racially and why all Christians should be paedo-baptists. The promises were to the elect, earthly, typologically, and spiritually

Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; NKJV

He never was a jew just by being a descendant of Jacob.
God never meant to include him in promises by the letter of his race.

This is not Paul teaching some new revelation of a different covenant. This is Paul explaining to misunderstanding jews the truth of the covenant that it, the one and only covenant of grace, never was with a race, it was always only with the elect and the promises to the jews was really with the real jews who are all elect of all nations who obey the faith of Abraham. That was the Jew God meant. But the Pharisees and dispensationalists though He meant racial Jews initially then changed to all people.

It was always ever only about His People. Oh the glory and awesomeness of the wisdom and plan of God most High, beyond our thinking and imagination, only revealed by the Spirit to His people. Selah.....


I hope this is clear enough and helpful to cut the incipient dispensational thinking that you were sure you never had or were free from by now, out of your thinking on this subject.

Now you can still be post mil, you can still witness to people living in Israel or who call themselves Jews because God is no respecter of persons and saves all people, but there never was a promise that needs to be fulfilled to any race. The race was a visible covenant people, Called my people, but only figuratively, shadow, typologically to point to the reality. Just as members of the church today are only the visible covenant of professors, we don't know who truly is elect and will inherit the promises.
Its all about His Elect and always has been and always will be.
This is the basic essence of covenant theology, the book of Hebrews who shows jesus the true sacrifice is what was only typified by the blood of bulls and goats that never took away a sin.

That whole thing, nation, civil and ceremonial laws, land, race, etc. was only a type of the visible church, and the world of whom only a subset will be saved, the remnant, elect from before the foundations of the world.

His People.
In His Service,

Masterfully done sir....

I just wonder why if Israel physical is no longer Gods ppl but the church is, than why does God keep them around, since the church inherits the Abraham prophecy and stuff..

seriously
where are the amaorites
amalekites
Babylonians
AI
Romans
Nazis,

etc

why is it, that God has essentially destroyed every single nation that has tried to destroy the Jews, just like God promised to them that He would?

and other groups that have sought to destroy the "no longer Gods people"?
why does it seem that it was accepted from Augustine on that Israel would never be a nation??? yet 1948 occurred?

why despite overwhelming odds did the 6 day war or yom kippur war??, etc go so well for them? weren't they outnumbered by 6-1??

nope, im no dispy. I just dont see the logic between what we know, and what covenant theology says about the Jews.

-----Added 3/9/2009 at 03:19:41 EST-----

see Peacemaker, thats a well done article, but it sounds like it was written by someone just after the destruction of the temple, and exiles around that time period (so written in the 400s lets say)..

but, I don't think it really addresses the issues involved with any potential "mass salvation" like what i mentioned about "why are they still here when they shouldn't be because the promises in the OT are no longer for them"