What's your stand on the Great Tribulation?

dbh · #41 (**permalink**) 07-23-2009, 09:45 PM

Matthew 25.13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
"That is, we do not know when it will be. Some have foolishly said, “We do
not know the day, or the hour, of Christ’s coming, but we may find out the
year.” We shall not do anything of the kind; the time is hidden altogether, it
is not revealed to us, and it shall not be known till, suddenly, the Lord
himself shall come in the clouds, with his bright heavenly retinue, to be
glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe.
Wherefore, be always on the watch, beloved, “for ye know neither the day
nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” God help us to be ready for
his appearing at any moment, for his dear name’s sake! Amen." - Spurgeon
Apparently some have actually believed that there was nothing needing to take place historically for Christ bodily to return at any moment. Perhaps it doesn't matter in the end how we view it precisely, as long as we take one of two views: either I may at any moment die and be face to face with the Lord, or Christ may appear at any moment and I will be face to face with Him. Either makes me watch and "purify myself" (by the grace of God we must add, to satisfy the good Calvinist in us).

ChristianHedonist · #42 (**permalink**) 07-23-2009, 10:06 PM

I think I agree with Roldan. As an amil, I think there may be a great tribulation associated with the end of the millenium in Rev. 20, when Satan is released for a little while.

reformedminister · #43 (**permalink**) 07-23-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbh

Matthew 24:42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord
doth come.
"That he will come, is certain. That his coming may be at any moment, is equally sure; and, therefore, we ought to be always ready for his appearing. The Lord make us to be so!" - Spurgeon
For myself, because there is at least the possibility that Christ may come at any moment (so some have believed) I take it as a motive to prepare my poor unworthy self for His coming. "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure"

He can come at any moment in death. His Second Coming partakes of the "already not yet" of eschatology. For us - and most others including Spurgeon - His Second Coming will be in death. But His visible and glorious Second Coming is delayed until the end of the world. There are other places where the Bible talks about Christ's coming and it's clearly not talking about His Advent at the end of time. Christ has already come for many, will come for us in death, and will also come with us unto resurrection and rapture at the end of time.

We must be ready for our Lord's Coming for us - not by knowing when we are going to die - but by being justified, adopted and sanctified and by steering clear of backsliding, although justified people who are backsliding when they die will be saved because they are justified.

I agree that the "great" tribulation was in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. The whole context and depiction of the event is obvious to any open minded believer. I also agree that Christ's visible and glorious Second Coming will be at the end of the age. However, what Scripture and verse can you derive the understanding that the "Second Coming" will be at death. It does not exist!

ewenlin · #44 (**permalink**) 07-23-2009, 11:19 PM

Thanks Rev Eppard, your initial post confused me when the [quote] commands weren't linked up.

So, if I may put it like this, if I follow a preterist approach towards biblical prophecy,

Tribulation fulfilled during 70A.D. in Matt24-25.

Whether there is a double fulfillment to Matt24-25 signifying another Tribulation period just before the Second Coming is debatable. But if I were to follow a strict preterist approach, the rest of Revelations would be symbolic?

1. 2 Witnesses
2. Abomination of Desolation (although this could be in A.D. 70 iirc)
3. Horse riders and the earthquakes etc that follow

I'm listening to a lecture now with a dispensational interpretation of Revelation as literal unfulfilled events, typical of the left behind stuff.

Anyone?

Richard Tallach · #45 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reformedminister

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbh

Matthew 24:42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord
doth come.
"That he will come, is certain. That his coming may be at any moment, is equally sure; and, therefore, we ought to be always ready for his appearing. The Lord make us to be so!" - Spurgeon
For myself, because there is at least the possibility that Christ may come at any moment (so some have believed) I take it as a motive to prepare my poor unworthy self for His coming. "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure"

He can come at any moment in death. His Second Coming partakes of the "already not yet" of eschatology. For us - and most others including Spurgeon - His Second Coming will be in death. But His visible and glorious Second Coming is delayed until the end of the world. There are other places where the Bible talks about Christ's coming and it's clearly not talking about His Advent at the end of time. Christ has already come for many, will come for us in death, and will also come with us unto resurrection and rapture at the end of time.

We must be ready for our Lord's Coming for us - not by knowing when we are going to die - but by being justified, adopted and sanctified and by steering clear of backsliding, although justified people who are backsliding when they die will be saved because they are justified.

I agree that the "great" tribulation was in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. The whole context and depiction of the event is obvious to any open minded believer. I also agree that Christ's visible and glorious Second Coming will be at the end of the age. However, what Scripture and verse can you derive the understanding that the "Second Coming" will be at death. It does not exist!

It is an adumbration or anticipation for the "Second Coming" for the individual.
When the Bible talks about Christ coming it is not only talking about the end of the world. Christ comes by His Spirit in reviving power - as He did at Pentecost. He also comes in judgement as He did on Jerusalem. His coming for us is "near", only a heartbeat away, while at the same time His coming with us too resurrection is years away because of good and bad things which the Bible says have to happen. Christ does not stop intervening in history until His final glorious Advent at the end of the World.

E.g. Did the world come to an end at these comings of Christ,

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (Rev 2:5)

Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. (Rev. 2:16)

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. (Rev. 3:3)

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. (Rev 3:1)

Christ's Coming partakes of the "already not but not yet" of eschatology pointed out by the likes of Vos.

He has already come for many in salvation and judgement in death. He will only come finally for the last generation alive on earth. The Bible indicates we are not the last generation because certain good and bad things have to happen. But this does not annul the fact that we do not know when He is going to come for us in death, and we must be morally and spiritually prepared.

When He comes at the end of the world He will come with those not to those that have already been with Him in Heaven for their bodily resurrection.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (I Thess 4:14).

We who have gone to Heaven will come with Jesus, join our bodies and go to meet Him in the air ("rapture"). Then will be the Last Judgement etc.

The teaching that Christ's final, physical, literal and stupendous Advent and the End of the World can happen any time and that Christians should think like that is erroneous. The Bible tells us lots about what is to occur before it.
But we still need to be prepared for Christ's Coming (in death).

-----Added 7/24/2009 at 09:21:51 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianHedonist

I think I agree with Roldan. As an amil, I think there may be a great tribulation associated with the end of the millenium in Rev. 20, when Satan is released for a little while.

There will be a falling away at the end, but there must be something to fall away from. Does amillenialism have this? Postmillenialism does.

Roldan · #46 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

There will be a falling away at the end, but there must be something to fall away from. Does amillenialism have this? Postmillenialism does.

Yes Amil does, the problem is that the Posty wants to force their definition of what gospel succession looks like on the Amil and go from there. Not only will the Gospel do its job in gathering His elect but the Gospel will also influence those around us and they will take the Christian label nominally and will taste the heavenly things and it is these nominal Christians that will Apostasize from the faith and in turn point their guns with the pagans towards the Elect.

Hebrews 6:4-8 comes to mind here.....

Quote:

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

These are the Apostates.....

Now the OBVIOUS problem for the Postmil position is that they boast on the idea that their eschatology is one of Hope and Victory being that the Gospel will fulfill its purpose and thats to put all enemies(nations) under His feet as a footstool and will permeate the earth making most (depending who you talk to) people Christians and as noted from the above quote this is where the apostates will come from.

So wheres the problem you ask if not already obvious?

Well, how is their view one of Hope and Victory if at the end this victory turns into Anarchy. Whats funny is that the postmil ends up right back with the Amil where the definition of the Gospel is one that gathers His elect or in other words at the end who are the ones who have not apostasized? The elect from every nation. How is this Hope and Victory? I know their is another postmil camp that doesn't believe in a future apostasy being that it was done in the past per preterism but I am specifically responding to the version espoused here.

IMO the Amil position make clearly more sense of the Apostasy than the Postmil view especially with all the claims of a Victorious hope but ends in Apostacy....go figure

Richard Tallach · #47 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roldan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

There will be a falling away at the end, but there must be something to fall away from. Does amillenialism have this? Postmillenialism does.

Yes Amil does, the problem is that the Posty wants to force their definition of what gospel succession looks like on the Amil and go from there. Not only will the Gospel do its job in gathering His elect but the Gospel will also influence those around us and they will take the Christian label nominally and will taste the heavenly things and it is these nominal Christians that will Apostasize from the faith and in turn point their guns with the pagans towards the Elect.

Hebrews 6:4-8 comes to mind here.....

Quote:

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

These are the Apostates.....

Now the OBVIOUS problem for the Postmil position is that they boast on the idea that their eschatology is one of Hope and Victory being that the Gospel will fulfill its purpose and thats to put all enemies(nations) under His feet as a footstool and will permeate the earth making most (depending who you talk to) people Christians and as noted from the above quote this is where the apostates will come from.

So wheres the problem you ask if not already obvious?

Well, how is their view one of Hope and Victory if at the end this victory turns into Anarchy. Whats funny is that the postmil ends up right back with the Amil where the definition of the Gospel is one that gathers His elect or in other words at the end who are the ones who have not apostasized? The elect from every nation. How is this Hope and Victory? I know their is another postmil camp that doesn't believe in a future apostasy being that it was done in the past per preterism but I am specifically responding to the version espoused here.

IMO the Amil position make clearly more sense of the Apostasy than the Postmil view especially with all the claims of a Victorious hope but ends in Apostacy....go figure

The apostasy will be a relatively short period, to be cut short by Christ's glorious visible Second Advent. It illustrates the incorrigibility of the Devil and Mankind before the end. As soon as the Devil is released he does what he knows best and is able to recruit followers to the cause.

The Hope and Victory of the Golden-Silver Age illlustrates that the God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit have the power to defeat the Devil and his minions decisively and take possession of the ends of the earth through Gospel persuasion.

The Silver Age is still hope and victory

(a) Because it hasn't happened in full measure yet.

(b) Because when it does happen it will last a long time. Revelation indicates in symbol that the whole period of the New Covenant is 1,000 years, while the period of struggle until the Devi is fully shut up is 3 1/2 years.

(c) Because during the Silver Age - as well as a short apostasy - we have our death and glorification to look forward to, and also Christ's final visible and glorious Second Advent.

(d) Just because there's apostasy at the end doesn't take away from the fact of Chrit's already achieved glorious victory in the gospel, routing the gods and philosophies of the pagans.

Roldan · #48 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roldan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

There will be a falling away at the end, but there must be something to fall away from. Does amillenialism have this? Postmillenialism does.

Yes Amil does, the problem is that the Posty wants to force their definition of what gospel succession looks like on the Amil and go from there. Not only will the Gospel do its job in gathering His elect but the Gospel will also influence those around us and they will take the Christian label nominally and will taste the heavenly things and it is these nominal Christians that will Apostasize from the faith and in turn point their guns with the pagans towards the Elect.

Hebrews 6:4-8 comes to mind here.....

Quote:

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

These are the Apostates.....

Now the OBVIOUS problem for the Postmil position is that they boast on the idea that their eschatology is one of Hope and Victory being that the Gospel will fulfill its purpose and thats to put all enemies(nations) under His feet as a footstool and will permeate the earth making most (depending who you talk to) people Christians and as noted from the above quote this is where the apostates will come from.

So wheres the problem you ask if not already obvious?

Well, how is their view one of Hope and Victory if at the end this victory turns into Anarchy. Whats funny is that the postmil ends up right back with the Amil where the definition of the Gospel is one that gathers His elect or in other words at the end who are the ones who have not apostasized? The elect from every nation. How is this Hope and Victory? I know their is another postmil camp that doesn't believe in a future apostasy being that it was done in the past per preterism but I am specifically responding to the version espoused here.

IMO the Amil position make clearly more sense of the Apostasy than the Postmil view especially with all the claims of a Victorious hope but ends in Apostacy....go figure

The apostasy will be a relatively short period, to be cut short by Christ's glorious visible Second Advent. It illustrates the incorrigibility of the Devil and Mankind before the end. As soon as the Devil is released he does what he knows best and is able to recruit followers to the cause.

The Hope and Victory of the Golden-Silver Age illlustrates that the God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit have the power to defeat the Devil and his minions decisively and take possession of the ends of the earth through Gospel persuasion.

The Silver Age is still hope and victory

(a) Because it hasn't happened in full measure yet.

(b) Because when it does happen it will last a long time. Revelation indicates in symbol that the whole period of the New Covenant is 1,000 years, while the period of struggle until the Devi is fully shut up is 3 1/2 years.

(c) Because during the Silver Age - as well as a short apostasy - we have our death and glorification to look forward to, and also Christ's final visible and glorious Second Advent.

(d) Just because there's apostasy at the end doesn't take away from the fact of Chrit's already achieved glorious victory in the gospel, routing the gods and philosophies of the pagans.

Silver age? Never heard that term used before.

But what you just described as the Silver age is the age we live in now. The Golden age is at the Coming of Christ that will last forever not only 1000yrs.

My point still stands and the fact remains that you have a victory ending in Anarchy...no getting around that no matter how nice we try to make it.

Quote:

The apostasy will be a relatively short period, to be cut short by Christ's glorious visible Second Advent. It illustrates the incorrigibility of the Devil and Mankind before the end. As soon as the Devil is released he does what he knows best and is able to recruit followers to the cause.

Agreed, this is not unique to Postmil.

Quote:

The Hope and Victory of the Golden-Silver Age illlustrates that the God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit have the power to defeat the Devil and his minions decisively and take possession of the ends of the earth through Gospel persuasion.

Agreed, again not unique to Postmil. And again depends on your definition of Gospel persuasion...that premise to me has not been proven IMO

Sounds very AMil to me

Richard Tallach · #49 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roldan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roldan

Yes Amil does, the problem is that the Posty wants to force their definition of what gospel succession looks like on the Amil and go from there. Not only will the Gospel do its job in gathering His elect but the Gospel will also influence those around us and they will take the Christian label nominally and will taste the heavenly things and it is these nominal Christians that will Apostasize from the faith and in turn point their guns with the pagans towards the Elect.

Hebrews 6:4-8 comes to mind here.....

These are the Apostates.....

Now the OBVIOUS problem for the Postmil position is that they boast on the idea that their eschatology is one of Hope and Victory being that the Gospel will fulfill its purpose and thats to put all enemies(nations) under His feet as a footstool and will permeate the earth making most (depending who you talk to) people Christians and as noted from the above quote this is where the apostates will come from.

So wheres the problem you ask if not already obvious?

Well, how is their view one of Hope and Victory if at the end this victory turns into Anarchy. Whats funny is that the postmil ends up right back with the Amil where the definition of the Gospel is one that gathers His elect or in other words at the end who are the ones who have not apostasized? The elect from every nation. How is this Hope and Victory? I know their is another postmil camp that doesn't believe in a future apostasy being that it was done in the past per preterism but I am specifically responding to the version espoused here.

IMO the Amil position make clearly more sense of the Apostasy than the Postmil view especially with all the claims of a Victorious hope but ends in Apostacy....go figure

The apostasy will be a relatively short period, to be cut short by Christ's glorious visible Second Advent. It illustrates the incorrigibility of the Devil and Mankind before the end. As soon as the Devil is released he does what he knows best and is able to recruit followers to the cause.

The Hope and Victory of the Golden-Silver Age illlustrates that the God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit have the power to defeat the Devil and his minions decisively and take possession of the ends of the earth through Gospel persuasion.

The Silver Age is still hope and victory

(a) Because it hasn't happened in full measure yet.

(b) Because when it does happen it will last a long time. Revelation indicates in symbol that the whole period of the New Covenant is 1,000 years, while the period of struggle until the Devi is fully shut up is 3 1/2 years.

(c) Because during the Silver Age - as well as a short apostasy - we have our death and glorification to look forward to, and also Christ's final visible and glorious Second Advent.

(d) Just because there's apostasy at the end doesn't take away from the fact of Chrit's already achieved glorious victory in the gospel, routing the gods and philosophies of the pagans.

Silver age? Never heard that term used before.

But what you just described as the Silver age is the age we live in now. The Golden age is at the Coming of Christ that will last forever not only 1000yrs.

My point still stands and the fact remains that you have a victory ending in Anarchy...no getting around that no matter how nice we try to make it.

Quote:

The apostasy will be a relatively short period, to be cut short by Christ's glorious visible Second Advent. It illustrates the incorrigibility of the Devil and Mankind before the end. As soon as the Devil is released he does what he knows best and is able to recruit followers to the cause.

Agreed, this is not unique to Postmil.

Quote:

The Hope and Victory of the Golden-Silver Age illlustrates that the God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit have the power to defeat the Devil and his minions decisively and take possession of the ends of the earth through Gospel persuasion.

Agreed, again not unique to Postmil. And again depends on your definition of Gospel persuasion...that premise to me has not been proven IMO

Sounds very AMil to me

Quote from Roldan
Silver age? Never heard that term used before.

I thought I got it from you on another thread. It's a more honest term for the period of Millennial blessing that postmils believe in because it's not going to be perfect, and the New Heavens and New Earth will be better (the "Golden Age" of Eternity)

I'll answer your other points later...

Roldan · #50 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roldan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

The apostasy will be a relatively short period, to be cut short by Christ's glorious visible Second Advent. It illustrates the incorrigibility of the Devil and Mankind before the end. As soon as the Devil is released he does what he knows best and is able to recruit followers to the cause.

The Hope and Victory of the Golden-Silver Age illlustrates that the God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit have the power to defeat the Devil and his minions decisively and take possession of the ends of the earth through Gospel persuasion.

The Silver Age is still hope and victory

(a) Because it hasn't happened in full measure yet.

(b) Because when it does happen it will last a long time. Revelation indicates in symbol that the whole period of the New Covenant is 1,000 years, while the period of struggle until the Devi is fully shut up is 3 1/2 years.

(c) Because during the Silver Age - as well as a short apostasy - we have our death and glorification to look forward to, and also Christ's final visible and glorious Second Advent.

(d) Just because there's apostasy at the end doesn't take away from the fact of Chrit's already achieved glorious victory in the gospel, routing the gods and philosophies of the pagans.

Silver age? Never heard that term used before.

But what you just described as the Silver age is the age we live in now. The Golden age is at the Coming of Christ that will last forever not only 1000yrs.

My point still stands and the fact remains that you have a victory ending in Anarchy...no getting around that no matter how nice we try to make it.

Agreed, this is not unique to Postmil.

Quote:

The Hope and Victory of the Golden-Silver Age illlustrates that the God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit have the power to defeat the Devil and his minions decisively and take possession of the ends of the earth through Gospel persuasion.

Agreed, again not unique to Postmil. And again depends on your definition of Gospel persuasion...that premise to me has not been proven IMO

Sounds very AMil to me

Quote from Roldan
Silver age? Never heard that term used before.

I thought I got it from you on another thread. It's a more honest term for the period of Millennial blessing that postmils believe in because it's not going to be perfect, and the New Heavens and New Earth will be better (the "Golden Age" of Eternity)

I'll answer your other points later...

Did I? LOL....I must be inspired when I post NAW JK I'm no pope

I can respect calling it a silver age more than a golden age as you put it.

Richard Tallach · #51 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 03:24 PM

Sounds very AMil to me

Well like many postmils I'm amil in the sense that I believe the binding of Satan started in the First Century. I do not believe that the Millenium is going to start in the future, but there will be times of greter blessing and gospel prosperity when e.g. the Jews believe as a nation - Romans 11.

The leavening of the earth is a process in history which has only made partial progress. The knowledge of the glory of God covers the earth in puddles rather than as the waters cover the sea.

I think some people call it optimistic amil, but its a form of postmil anyway. I believe in a long period of international conversion, world peace, total Christianity worldwide, produced by God's Spirit.

Exiled_2_God · #52 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 04:06 PM

What's the Great Tribulation???

j/k

busdriver72 · #53 (**permalink**) 08-26-2009, 03:59 PM

"Rapture."
From the Latin Vulgate rendering of 1st Thess 4:17. Latin word "rapio," meaning basically "caught up." It is also connected to the Latin "raptura," meaning to seize or capture.
I dunno, guys, I look in Matt 24 at what Jesus said would be happening during the "great tribulation," and still see those things going on even today.

Spinningplates2 · #54 (**permalink**) 08-26-2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busdriver72

"Rapture."
From the Latin Vulgate rendering of 1st Thess 4:17. Latin word "rapio," meaning basically "caught up." It is also connected to the Latin "raptura," meaning to seize or capture.
I dunno, guys, I look in Matt 24 at what Jesus said would be happening during the "great tribulation," and still see those things going on even today.

What are you syaing Brother? The Rapture is still coming or are we seeing the "signs of the times" marking the soon end?

busdriver72 · #55 (**permalink**) 08-26-2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

The Rapture is still coming or are we seeing the "signs of the times" marking the soon end?

Well, if there is to be a bonafide "rapture" (as in being caught up, caught away), and we're still here at the present, I guess it's still coming. And as far as "signs of the times," we'll be seeing those to the end.
Lots of 'em.

Manuel · #56 (**permalink**) 08-30-2009, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoldBeliever

Regarding the Rapture, it must needs first be defined. The rapture is nothing more than the translation of the living saints at the time of Christ's coming.

This is interesting... I thought that the rapture was the translation of ALL the saints: dead (at the time of Christ's coming), and alive. At least that's what I understand from 1 Thes 4:17

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

busdriver72 · #57 (**permalink**) 08-31-2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

This is interesting... I thought that the rapture was the translation of ALL the saints: dead (at the time of Christ's coming), and alive. At least that's what I understand from 1 Thes 4:17

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Yep. It says the living will not preceed those who sleep in Christ.

Blue Tick · #58 (**permalink**) 08-31-2009, 10:15 AM

Pastor Ralph,

When you read 1&2 Thessalonians how do tell the difference between the rapture and the second coming? When I read it all the rapture verses refer to the second coming.

Manuel · #59 (**permalink**) 09-04-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Tick

Pastor Ralph,

When you read 1&2 Thessalonians how do tell the difference between the rapture and the second coming? When I read it all the rapture verses refer to the second coming.

This is a really good question and one that I have asked myself and others many times, since the very first time I heard somebody talk about the rapture, I even read some books that try to explain this but they all start from the premise that there is a rapture event separated from the second coming but never explain how they see this doctrine in the Bible and how they separate them.

I'm eagerly awaiting for the answer

Richard Tallach · #60 (**permalink**) 09-04-2009, 05:28 PM

I don't see any big gap(s) between the Second Advent, the Resurrection of the saints and the reprobate, the Rapture, the Last Judgement, and the End of the World/New Heavens and New Earth.

The Rapture seems to correspond (somewhat) to Christ's Ascension which for Him was forty days after His Resurrection. Even a gap as short as that isn't indicated in the texts which deal with the Rapture.

tman · #61 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoldBeliever

66 AD to 70AD was the Great Tribulation. Jeremiah states that it is the time of Jacob's Trouble. It was the punishment of apostate Israel foretold by the prophets and also by Moses. It fulfills the things spoken by Jesus in Matthew 22, 23 and 24 as well.

Since there is no longer a Roman Empire (Rome was the FINAL world empire per Daniel), a future Great Tribulation is not only impossible, it makes no sense.

Amen.